Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think personality disorder IS mental health? (sensitive topic)

127 replies

EddyF · 20/02/2018 21:55

In this article of a mother killing her baby, it mentions that she has a personality disorder but not suffering mental illness. Wouldn't a PD mean mental illness?

I genuinely am interested in knowning more about PD as I'm worried about a relative who appears to have PD (from my limited knowledge on Google search). But I would have thought it would be considered as a MH issue.

Sorry it's from the DMBlush

article-5412741/Mother-22-admits-poisoning-seven-week-old-baby-boy.html

OP posts:
NoMudNoLotus · 21/02/2018 01:14

@SuperBeagle

Capacity can fluctuate day to day hour to hour .

Personality Disorders .... ALL Personality Disorders , can co exist with other types of mental illness so it is entirely possible to commit a crime and lack capacity .

People don't fit neatly into boxes.

And again , there are treatments for Personality Disorders and they can be alleviated to allow people a quality of life , to be able to work etc.

SuperBeagle · 21/02/2018 01:18

NoMud Sure, but good luck being able to prove capacity in that moment. I've yet to study/work on a case where a personality disorder amounted to lacking capacity.

If the personality disorder coexists with other mental illnesses, it will be the other mental illnesses which come under scrutiny in court, not the personality disorder itself. Often personality disorders are considered in court (either as aggravating or mitigating factors, or to paint a portrait of a person's personality or past), but not as part of an insanity defence.

And any treatment is just treating the symptoms of a personality disorder, not treating the personality disorder itself.

Thisimmortalcurl · 21/02/2018 01:30

Mile away that super is a lawyer and no mud is a nurse/ dr .

runawaywithme07 · 21/02/2018 01:33

It's a semantic difference which the DM has exploited (as usual) to make the woman sound as terrible as possible

No, they're just reporting the facts of the case, like any other news site:

Daily Mail: "While she had no mental illness it was agreed that she suffered from a personality disorder."

BBC: "The court heard while Turtle had no mental illness it had been agreed she suffered from a personality disorder."

Daily Post Wales live feed: "Defending barrister Gordon Cole QC said Turtle had suffered post-natal depression, and while she had no mental illness it was agreed that she suffered from a personality disorder."

SuperBeagle · 21/02/2018 01:36

Mile away that super is a lawyer and no mud is a nurse/ dr .

I am qualified, but no longer work in the legal field, to be fair. I accept that I do have a different understanding/perspective from someone in the medical field.

Thisimmortalcurl · 21/02/2018 01:38

And it’s actually really upset me the view that people can get better, it’s bullshit they can .
Don’t you dare say to people that a lot of the time have experienced trauma beyond anything most people can imagine that they can’t feel and cope better.
Whitewashing in a negative way is horrible.

Thisimmortalcurl · 21/02/2018 01:40

Crossed post super , yep you I’m sure have experienced people and a severe and perhaps trying to get off a crime using mental health but most people who read this forum and have that diagnosis are not like that . They have been victims and deserve support and help.

Rinoachicken · 21/02/2018 08:01

I’ve done STEPPS, found it excellent. When I’m ‘well’ I can recognise a disordered thought and challenge it as I’ve been taught.

When I’m not well, all bets are off.

strawberriesaregood · 21/02/2018 08:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Uhuhhoney · 21/02/2018 08:48

Genetic bases to any mental illness/pd are highly criticised and not generally accepted by psychologists. You can't be born "wired" wrong. Any worthwhile genetic evidence is epigenetics. Its so dangerous to say some people are "born mentally ill". There's absolutely no evidence that this is the case.

SuperBeagle · 21/02/2018 08:51

You absolutely can be born with a personality disorder. Confused

Where are you getting your information from that psychiatrists "accept" the contrary? Where are you getting your information from that psychiatrists contend that there is no genetic/hereditary basis for personality disorders and mental illnesses?

SuperBeagle · 21/02/2018 08:53

Or rather, I should say that you absolutely can be born with traits which may later be recognised as a personality disorder. I don't think anyone is going to diagnose a toddler with a personality disorder, for example, but they may already display traits which may become more identifiable over time.

Rinoachicken · 21/02/2018 08:57

Don’t all toddlers have personality disorders? 😂😂😂

SouthWestmom · 21/02/2018 08:58

I don't buy that at all. In fact, when I was treated for OCD my psychiatrist seemed to be thinking along the lines of family tendencies. I have it and so do three of my children - I would dispute it is mimicking or trauma. They have very mainstream, mundane lives albeit disabled/with disabled siblings.

LagunaBubbles · 21/02/2018 09:05

I'm a Psychiatric Nurse currently working in a psychotherapy dept using Mentalisation based treatment (MBT) for Borderline Personality Disorder. It's not an over night cure. But it is a research and evidence based treatment for BPD that in my experience over the last 10 years can make a huge difference to people living with this disorder. Not all PDs are treatable.

LagunaBubbles · 21/02/2018 09:07

Uhuhoney your views are odd to put it politely. Of course there can be a genetic link to personality disorders and mental illness.

hungryhippo90 · 21/02/2018 09:15

To me PDs are mental health. I was diagnosed with a PD by mental health professionals. My PD was in fact misdiagnosed as bipolar only a year before.
It was explained to me by the MHT that the real only difference between EUPD (I prefer to use the term BPD but hey) and bipolar is that my mood cycles are more rapid cycling than with bipolar.

I don’t necessarily agree with that- but if it was close enough in first place to be misdiagnosed.

And for the poster who asks the link between anxiety and depression- I think that the cycling of my PD exacerbates. depression and anxiety which I would say are at a moderate enough level when my moods are stable. But when my moods dip, the depression and anxiety symptoms are crushing.

Really sorry to read there are so many others here who have PDs too, glad to see that some have been offered proper help from the MHTs in your areas.

HannahGlasgowGal · 21/02/2018 09:20

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-jay-watts/borderline-personality-di_b_12167212.html

Some interesting reading for you all

Aspergallus · 21/02/2018 09:20

The reason the distinction is made is because the distinction will have been made by the forensic psychiatrist in the court report.

So in every day psychiatry/mental health you would include PD as a condition to be treated...but in matters relating to offending, the law comes into it and there is a clear distinction between mental disorders where someone remains responsible for their actions (PD) and those in which they may be, for example, found not guilty due to insanity (rare, but usually serious biological illness like schizophrenia).

The wording used in the court report, often ends up being reported in the press just like this example, but it really doesn't mean much for the day to day classification of mental disorders.

windchimesabotage · 21/02/2018 09:22

All personality disorders can be treated!! With varying success obviously but if the patient puts the effort in then they will achieve something at least. People use 'narcissist' as a term of abuse on mumsnet and in the most part its an armchair diagnosis. People who actually are diagnosed with NPD and in treatment for it can actually achieve some measure of success.. mainly because they have accepted their diagnosis and want to change their patterns of behaviour and reactions to stress. Not all people diagnosed with NPD are just shitty people!! Its often an unhealthy reaction to long term trauma or abuse..... Sorry that is slightly off topic but I hate to see everyone with personality disorders tarred with the same brush because despite the disorder every individual is different and some people regardless of diagnosis have a great deal of insight and put a lot of work into trying to deal with their disorder. I worked in mental health for years and met some very lovely people with varying personality disorder diagnosis, including people with NPD. Its an actual disorder not just someone being a terrible person you know!!

As for this DM article, im not really sure they are that great at reporting on mental health issues are they? I think that in this case it hinged on the fact that her behaviour could not have deemed to be influenced entirely by her personality disorder as she appeared to be mentally well, ie in the same frame of mind that she usually was, rather than it being an episode that she had little control over.
Im not sure that I would personally agree with that, but I think thats what is being implied isnt it? Not that personality disorders cant sometimes cause people to behave in very out of control ways that would lead them to not be said to have criminal responsibility (they certainly can) but that in this case she was found to be of sound enough mind to have criminal responsibility. As ive said no two people with a PD will be exactly the same, people will be effected by it to varying degrees. Some people may suffer so severely that they would be deemed not to have criminal responsibility but other people wont be effected by it to that level.

HannahGlasgowGal · 21/02/2018 09:23

www.independent.co.uk/Voices/personality-disorder-mental-health-girl-interrupted-fatal-attraction-misdiagnosis-a7825066.html

And another interesting article addressing the gendered issues around the PD diagnosis

BertieBotts · 21/02/2018 09:25

A disorder and an illness are different things. I have ADHD which I should normally take medication for, and it affects my mental state/behaviour, but I'm not mentally ill. It's a neurological disorder.

You wouldn't say that a person with diabetes was ill if the diabetes was well controlled, it's the same thing with a personality disorder or similar. A person could become ill, however, if the disorder (whichever kind) was badly controlled as this could lead to some kind of illness, such as depression, anxiety or psychosis. I expect that the press have been careful to stipulate this due to requests made by whoever have released the information.

ApacheEchidna · 21/02/2018 09:32

Personality Disorders are not the same as mental illness. An illness is something that (theoretically, maybe as-yet undiscovered) has a cure or treatment options. If there's no cure or treatment and no expectation that there would be research into a cure or treatment then it's neurodiversity and not mental illness.

HannahGlasgowGal · 21/02/2018 09:39

How many times do people need to point out that PD is treatable? For BPD Dialectical behavioural therapy has incredibly good outcomes. This study shows that 50% of people diagnosed with BPD no longer meet the criteria after 5 years

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.2.274

Uhuhhoney · 21/02/2018 09:52

I said psychologists. Not psychiatrists.

My views are different to mainstream psychiatry. But they are very well supported in antipsychiatry psychology research.

Genetic research is deeply flawed. Read The Gene Illusion: genetic research in psychiatriy under tue microscope. Thats not to say theres no genetic bases - but everything is genetic! What'sthe value in saying something is genetic?

Also read Malla's "mental illness is like any other medical illness a critical examination" by Ashok Malla.

Calling someone odd who's dedicating alot of time in trying to provide research to alleviate mental distress is not helpful. Maybe have an open debate without resorting to name calling