To find it outrageous that school inspects the DC's trousers

[BlackTrousersAreBlackTrousers]

And makes them change immediately into school regulation trousers if they are not the right 'cut'.

Black trousers are black trousers surely. DS wanted the 'skinny' type which are not actually skinny but less flappable than the standard fit. All the rage, plenty of DC wearing them. Store sells them as school trousers. They are school trousers.

School decides they are 'jeans'.

AIBU to think they should take their head out if their arse and concentrate on educating the DC rather than making them line up for 'inspection', as if they are army recruits?

Lower school HAS to wear trousers only sold by school uniform shop. They even put a colourful line down the side, like they are an army brass band, so they cannot sneak on reasonably priced trousers - £18 as opposed to £6 supermarket ones.

It is obscene. Why are they allowed to get away with it?

Before some idiot pipes up that I should disrupt DS's education by moving him if I don't like 'dem rulz', schools are a public SERVICE not a vehicle for boosting the ego of some limp dicked, power crazed twat .

i'm in favour of school uniform, but am often shocked at the level of detail and number of rules in English schools. here in Scotland it's more lax in many schools. My dcs secondary is/was white shirt, black jumper/cardigan, black trousers/skirt, sensible black shoes/boots and school tie. Blazer optional. Tidy enough, if not super smart, inexpensive and room for variations . I think there are more important battles to fight.
A coupe of weeks ago, my sister was visiting and we were going through some old photos. She found a pic of dd2 in her school uniform(.nic tie and blazer) but was "horrified" at how short her skirt was and that she had make up on. Made quite a few bitchy comments along the line that she would never let her dds going to school like that, they were there to work and get an education etc and only shut up when I pointed out that dd graduated last summer with a first class honours degree. don't think the short skirt affected her learning too much!

why on earth does it matter if everyone's trousers are different from each other?

then there's no point in having uniforms, is there. Either kids have uniforms, or they don't. I much prefer they do.

No, if you really want uniforms you can tell parents that, say, it's black trousers plus a standard white school shirt. But why make a fuss about the cut of the trousers? It's completely pointless.

Julie8008, I'm well aware that teenagers will always find something to rebel against. But the point is that the sensible school chooses its battles. If teachers are enforcing, say, good manners and keeping quiet in class, they are on strong ground because all the arguments are in their favour. If they are enforcing something stupid, they have to resort to stupid arguments like "because it's the rule" or "because we say so" which do nothing whatsoever to cause teenagers to respect them.

"sensible black shoes/boots"

But that is open to interpretation. At DD's school sensible black shoes could be exactly that, or black trainers (which aren't allowed)

There's proof that schools with strict uniform rules perform better than those with loose rules

No, there isn't. Studies have been done that show that when, for instance, new management comes in and introduces strict uniform and other rules there is an initial rise in performance but (a) it usually relapses and (b) there is the same effect when uniform is not involved.

Look at how many people on this thread (including thr OP) have come back to but why does it even matter if they wear trainers and not shoes. More often than not it also comes with the view let teachers actually teach which translates as back down any time our DC don't fancy following rules because it's the path of least resistance rather than send their child in with the expectations of not being an argumentative PITA

No, that isn't what people are saying. What most are saying is that rules that matter should be in place and enforced. Indeed, I agree with you that if the school rule is for a very particular style of uniform staff have no choice but to enforce it and parents should generally support it unless there are good reasons (such as sensory problems) why their child can't wear the uniform in question.

However, there is no reason why the same parents shouldn't make representations about relaxing the rules. My issue is with those who flex their muscles by ordaining that parents must buy unnecessarily expensive uniform, and/or uniform like stupid polyester blazers, ties and shirts with logos. The main argument in favour of uniform is that it stops competition amongst fashion victim teenagers, and prevents bullying. All of that can be achieved by simply specifying something like grey or black trousers or skirt, plain coloured shirts and jumpers, and black or brown shoes with heels below a specified height.

I really don't understand how you extrapolate from that that those who disagree with uniform are in favour of a wholesale free for all on rules. I'm all for children learning to obey rules, but the point is that if the rules themselves aren't sensible or logical you are simply making it more difficult to teach them that principle. Pick your battles.

I've warned DD that her skirt, in my view, now breaches the school's long-standing rules (because she's grown) and that last term's trousers breach their new rules (which have changed). She airily assures me that that's between her and the staff 'who don't worry about it as long as you're polite and do the work'.

Watch this space.

Simple solution is to have some schools designated rule free zones uniform free. Then any parents/students (like the ops) who refuse to follow their own school uniform policy can be moved to these 'special' schools immediately. After a few years we can start to compare how well which schools work best.

Would be interesting to see how keen parents are to teach their children to ignore school rules then.

I think school uniform should be set on a national level for all schools, with individual schools just adding their own badge. This way the uniform could be produced in bulk at a low cost to parents and it would put a stop to all the schools coming up with their own ever more expensive uniforms. Education is supposed to be free to all children, even those on a low income. Of course parents have to buy clothes, but the uniform should be available at the price of the lower cost clothes you can buy. Of course this would have to be carefully regulated to stop the manufacturers overcharging and keep prices low and quality reasonable.

Simple solution is to have some schools designated rule free zones uniform free. Then any parents/students (like the ops) who refuse to follow their own school uniform policy can be moved to these 'special' schools immediately. After a few years we can start to compare how well which schools work best.

you already have the pisa test where 'uniform wearing' british pupils are further down in ranking/academic outcomes than 'non uniform wearing' pupils from finland, netherlands...

What happens when someone can’t no matter what afford the £18 trousers or whatever it may be in some schools! I never had a uniform but my children did, they could have any trouser, polo shirts etc so long as they were the right colour. It seems unfair on those that really can’t afford the uniform.

Good solution ShortandAnnoying. That should keep everyone happy, really.

Gnothergnu

Exactly!

I've got no problem with rules. Dd and I have signed all the usual forms agreeing to abide by the rules and I would totally support the school if she broke any.

The school dd goes to has no uniform, but plenty of rules about behaviour, mobile phone use, behaviour in the local village during lunchtime and arriving back on time. Yes, shock horror 15 and 16 year olds are trusted to go out at lunchtime! However, this privilege is withdrawn on an individual basis if the rules are broken.

I don't see why mutual trust and respect can't be scaled up to larger schools, with clear rules and consequences for breaking them. This would reward the vast majority who do conform.

In response to a pp, this is not a private school and the students come from a wide variety of backgrounds.

Schools have created the problem by making such an issue of uniform. It's no surprise that teenagers push the boundaries. So the schools tighten the rules to make it harder and so it goes on.

you already have the pisa test where 'uniform wearing' british pupils are further down in ranking/academic outcomes than 'non uniform wearing' pupils from finland, netherlands...

Thats not what the pisa tests measure.

you already have the pisa test where 'uniform wearing' british pupils are further down in ranking/academic outcomes than 'non uniform wearing' pupils from finland, netherlands...
I love it on an education thread when selective quoting and reference to PISA comes up like it's some sort of match point moment.
Somewhat unsurprisingly, uniform isn't the only variable in those situations.
Also somewhat unsurprisingly, on MN threads PISA is thr go to study for people usually not in education with limited knowledge of educational research to criticise any element of British education they aren't a fan of.

I can take or leave uniforms as a thing. But i tell you what most of the people arguing against them sound like the kids at school.

To those who wish there was no uniform or a simpler uniform, or a non-branded uniform, I would just ask - have you expressed your views with reasons to the school?

I don't have a problem with parents or children disliking a policy and then voicing their dislike in a polite way. This could be about uniform or homework, or the sanctions policy, or lunch arrangements or anything.

When you apply for a school though, you are told the uniform policy along with others in advance - so you know what you are applying for and often you have to sign to show recognition of the school rules. It is still possible then to write a note explaining unhappiness at a rule....but few so.

What I don't think is appropriate as a parent is to actively undermine the school by just flouting the rules or allowing or helping your child to do this. I don't think it matters if the reason is that you don't like the rules, or you just think they shouldn't apply to your child because they are a a special exception, or whatever reason there is.

There are 2 issues on this thread. Is uniform necessary for a good education, and should parents support school policy.

I think it's fine to decide uniform isn't necessary or is a daft idea, or that an individual schools choice of uniform is a daft idea. I think it's fine to voice these thoughts to those who might be able to make a change. However, I also think parents needs to support the school with the policy it has at this current time, whether that is homework or discipline or uniform.

It's very hard to come up with an acceptable reason not to support the uniform policy and to help a child break the rules by buying them the wrong stuff. People mention money and uniform being expensive - some uniform isn't expensive and still parents try to abuse the system. Some of it is more expensive. Being on a lower income makes all kinds of purchases difficult, not just uniform. More careful budgeting is needed clearly if there's a low income and perhaps more use of the second hand uniform sale where schools offer uniform for very cheap prices. Sometimes people cite cost as the main reason, but this is sometimes actually an excuse, because really they just want to support their child in wearing something different, or don't see why they should spend any money at all on something their children don't like.

OP is not deliberately flouting rules is she? She bought something branded as school trousers. She either has a reasonable gripe with the shop selling them or with the school, without seeing the trousers in question I can't tell which. Unless they're denim they're not jeans in my book.

cat
When it suggests DS wanted skinny trousers the likelihood is they are not school trousers. It'll be a case of how skinny can you get before the school say something. (Which teens have done for years pushing uniform, just usually we did it with our uniform rather than having adults kit us out in it).

And even if a shop does brand something as schoolwear, a parent doesn't have a reasonable complaint against the shop.

I've seen leggings trousers branded as school wear. Last year asda did a school shirt with peplum detail (so not a plain white school shirt in any way shape or form). I've seen black trainers routinely branded as school shoes abd increasingly school shoe males trying to buy into thr trainer-esque market ready to make a fee quid from parents who get them as a compromise rather than buying an actual pair of school shoes.

I've seen back to school bags that wouldn't fit an exercise book and jersey mid thigh stretchy skirts in the school wear section.

Shops will put fashion items into the school wear section because they know there are some people who want to kit their kid out like a fashion show and there are others who will cave to pester power.

Some uniforms are ridiculous in my opinion. But it's not hard to spot fashion clothing vs school uniform when shopping when the school outline their expectations.

I haven't a frigging clue about fashion, I hope it is as easy as you say maisy. DC's primary school is blissfully unfussy, if it's the right colour they're fine, and I'm not sure they even care about colour for shoes though most wear black anyway. I can tell leggings from trousers, but "jeans" that aren't made of denim is a new one on me, I thought jeans were by definition trousers made of denim. OP definitely said in her original post that she bought something that is sold as school trousers. I'd be interested to see a link as it seems incredible that anything I'd recognise as jeans would be sold as being school trousers.

cat
Some makes of trousers have started making 'school' trousers of a thicker chino type material. They are essentially jeans but are not smart school trousers.

In all honesty, i don't like 50% of what high street shops call school wear becaaue it wouldn't count for the uniforms of many schools. But, they have fashion points and they know people will be looking for black trousers in August so they stash lots of 'borderline' items because they know people will buy it and chance their arm. It takes the piss but a little common sense goes a long way aka 'is this item designed to be fashionable? Does it look like actual uniform or the type of uniform you'd see worn on Hollyoaks or a movie?'

I think I may be buying those maisie :( We always get cotton because DC are eczema-prone. Cotton trousers do look more Chino like rather than suit-trouser-like. Still looks smart (ahem when we remember to iron), and definitely not denim.

YABU. If you don’t enforce school uniform rules tightly the richer kids all dress up better and shame the poorer kids.

The whole reason we have school uniform is to prevent competition in dress between the little charmers.

If the motive is to prevent the poorer kids being shamed then uniform needs to be as cheap as possible, then, UnrelentingFruitScoffer, enabling the poorer parents to keep up. That often doesn't seem to be the case.

cat
I wear cotton ones. Cotton is fine. All the polyester uniforms stuff seems awful to me
It's the heavier thicker ones (like between chinos and jeans) that are designed to be essentially jeans.