To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

Many non-observant Jews have their sons circumcised; partly perhaps because of atavistic reasons but there is a practical reason too. Some Jewish people brought up observant cease to be so in adult life, and some move in the opposite direction. And for a man making that move will be easier and less painful if he is done in infancy. Some of them get it done by a doctor without religious ceremony; no matter, once done it's done!

FGM still happens despite being illegal, thousands of girls get taken overseas. It's gone underground. The same would happen with male circumcision without the rabbis/imams being on board. I'm being realistic. The law could be changed, although there would be complaints about anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, but if you want to stop it from happening, then you need more than just the law being changed.

'Some of them get it done by a doctor without religious ceremony; no matter, once done it's done!' what a great logical argument not

"Once it's done, it's done" is precisely the problem.

Can't glue it back on if the boy decides he wishes it hadn't been done later in life. That is, if the brainwashing hasn't worked!

It's a disgusting habit. Let the boys decide when they are 16. No need to outlaw it for adults.

The only thing that gets MNers frothing at the mouth more predictably than a BF v FF thread is a trans thread
a SAHM v working mum thread
a benefits thread a circumcision thread. Do you guys not get bored rehashing the same issues? Is everyone who opposes circumcision really comfortable with the vague and not so vague undercurrent of anti-Semitism in many of these responses? Does anyone care about the staggering amount of ignorance being thrown about, starting with the very title of the thread? (Iceland has not, in fact, “banned circumcision.)

No, I thought not. For some reason it’s more fun to keep repeating the same arguments to each other in progressively louder and less civilised ways, destroying your own credibility and drowning out any hint of respectful, informed discourse. You can’t possibly think this is the way to convince anyone of your position! And you probably all posted the same things to each other under different usernames on last month’s circumcision thread! This really is MN at its worst, regardless of how you feel about circumcision or trans people, BFing, benefits, stepmothers SAHMs and people who spend over £1 million on a house. Did I forget anything? .

As you were, then.

parrothead its antisemitic to oppose mutilation of childrens penis's

FGM still happens despite being illegal, thousands of girls get taken overseas. It's gone underground.

Is that any reason for it not to be illegal? The message is out there that FGM is not acceptable. Anyone doing it openly will be caught, and public awareness will eventually close it down altogether in this country. A long process certainly, but one that is worthwhile and has to be done.

MGM has to be confronted in the same way until it is finally stopped, however many years it takes.

Do you guys not get bored rehashing the same issues?

Surely every shift in humanity was predecessed by a a period of discussion.

Does anyone care about the staggering amount of ignorance being thrown about, starting with the very title of the thread? (Iceland has not, in fact, “banned circumcision.)

I composed the thread title, and you would do well not to misquote what I said in your effort to misrepresent it.

I did not say "Iceland has banned circumcision". That is past tense.
I said it is banning circumcision, present tense, because the process has only just been started.
I gave the link, one of many available, so that the actual position can be readily seen.

You mention that the topic is regularly discussed on MN. This time you are correct. It is discussed regularly because many people here find it important. For that reason it will come up again in spite of your efforts to shut it down.

I'm not saying legislation isn't important, I'm saying that on its own it doesn't change much. You need to get a conversation going about this. That way, there's more chance of a change at the grassroots. Otherwise you'll just end up being accused of anti-Semitism and circumcision will still continue.

I am very glad you brought it up, Glad. I for one had not seen any thread about this before.

Parrot head not sure what you have added here. Why is it anti Semitic to oppose the removal of partofa child's penis without consent?

@StatelessPrincess and @Bluelady and others who support this in the name of religious tolerance - my religion requires me to remove my child's little finger before they are 8 days old. It. Ugh even be done my a religious elder. You ok with that?

Can I ask if someone arrives at a&e with a distressed baby who has been circumcised at "home" where do the rights of the child and the parents begin and end.

@Bouledeneige good point. It's a helpless baby and it makes me so sad that the people who are supposed to love him and protect him allow for this barbaric act to be carried out. But I've heard it all: just a piece of skin, it doesn't hurt that much (how the fuck do you know that?!) and it's cleaner. Just fucking wash yourself properly, ffs.

Andrew - can I just check - how to you know it's less painful for a baby than a grown man?

Like I said - it's just easier to ignore a babies cries...

Alice Miller the famous psychologist saw that circumcision was a violence towards a defenceless child. ( She escaped Nazi persecution during the war and was from a Jewish family herself.)

"Miller was concerned about a spectrum of behaviors ranging from sexual and physical abuse — which, by her definition, included spanking and circumcision — to neglect, humiliation and other forms of emotional cruelty" ( from this obituary: articles.latimes.com/2010/may/01/local/la-me-0502-alice-miller-20100501)

Parrothead

Is everyone who opposes circumcision really comfortable with the vague and not so vague undercurrent of anti-Semitism in many of these responses?

Calling anti-antisemitism in these threads is just trying to shut down the discussion.

Andrewofgg

I suspect that the most practical reason is that a baby can't argue that they don't want it done.

I think, like halal slaughter, and women's rights, this is a nod to anti-Muslim prejudice rather than any amount of concern for boys and men.

Really, rice? You haven't seen any comments about Judaism and Christianity? Or have you not RTFT and just wanted to chip that in there??!

I'm against ear piecing babies as well, for much of the same reasons I'm anti circumcision, have you got a bigot box to put me in?

"Calling anti-antisemitism in these threads is just trying to shut down the discussion"
Yes.
That's why I wanted to point out that Alice Miller, who was violently opposed to the circumcision of baby boys and saw it as abuse and violence towards them, was Jewish herself.

And , what about the millions of American, non-Muslim, and non-Jewish, baby boys who were being circumcised as a matter of course until quite recently? Even Trump himself. “True-blue, patriotic American men walk with…you know…a certain swagger. They’re proud to be circumcised,” Trump told a crowd of enthusiastic supporters in a sudden shift from the topics he had been talking about" (thelapine.ca/trump-says-uncircumcised-men-are-un-american-and-smell-bad/)

So why do you think this is a nod to anti-Muslim predjudice Rice?

Riceuten: hardly.
There has been emphatic anti-religion, there has also been a criticism/ challenge / debunking of the health and hygiene arguments trotted out for secular U.S circumcision.

It is possible to be anti circumcision without being racist / anti-Semitic / Islamophobic.

Circumcision is not routine in the UK except for religious reasons so tne conversation will largely be talking about the people who are the keen circumcisers.

This is exactly what I’m talking about! I never said opposing circumcision is anti-Semitic. I thought I had stated it so clearly that nobody could miss it. I’m actually on the fence about circumcision myself, and that’s the truth. But the fact remains that there a very real element of anti-semitism in more than a few of the comments, though of course not all. I find it very scary that and that so many of you purportedly can’t recognise it. This is also why your arguments hold no water: they are based on straw men. One can only assume you don’t think the real facts are compelling enough. I’m not sure I agree, but why resort to pesky facts when you can be inflammatory and bigoted?