To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

I just don't think that many of the arguments on this thread are going to win the hearts and minds of those who would need convincing if a ban was actually proposed.

Extraordinary, isn’t it, that’s its incumbent on one set of people to persuade another set of people to give up their right to inflict pain and harm on a tiny baby.

It is incumbent on anyone who seeks to protect babies from non-medically advised circumcision to do so in a way that actually works and that doesn't have grave, if unintended, consequences.

What consequences are they?

Guess they mean back street circumcisions.

So people who object to non-medical circumcision also have to take responsibility for unscrupulous individuals putting their children at risk in the name of their religious beliefs?

Other than potentially driving the practice underground, and borderline religious persecution, and outright racism (demonstrated by already deleted posts upthread) I don't actually know.

The way to stop circumcision is to get those who do it on side. Religion-bashing isn't going to achieve that.

I almost think (and this doesn't sit comfortably with me) that unless one comes from one of the communities that practises circumcision and/or is a medical professional, that this debate isn't ours to have. There are too many opportunities for bigots to hijack, and ultimately maybe scupper, the argument.

Which post was religion-bashing? I must have missed it. I've read lots of comments critical of the practice of circumcision done for religious reasons, but they've been critical of that one element of those religions, not the entire religion. Which page are they on?

this debate isn't ours to have.

I work in safeguarding - it is absolutely our debate to have. Safeguarding children is everyone’s responsibility.

I'd be interested to know if you found a group of Jewish men who were circumcised as a baby and a a group of Muslim men also circumcised as a baby how many would say they were glad they had it done as a baby and are grateful to their parents

If you found a group of women who've been through FGM, I would hazard a guess that majority wouldn't be grateful to their parents for that choice

And you only have to look at the Victoria Climbié case to see where fear of being accused of racism can end up.

greensocbluesock

Might be worth asking some of the 7.4% of paediatric urology clinic patients who are there to deal with a circumcision complication as well, to get a spread of views.

I've actually personally seen a case of partial glanular amputation. The difference between that and FGM was incompetence vs intention.

NotBadConsidering

Tbf the thread did go on target about the existence of religion

Suburban, are all Jewish and Muslim parents "unscrupulous" in your opinion?

And to compare male circumcision to Victoria Climbié FFS!

The comments I've read have been "believe what you like, just don't use that belief to justify mutilating babies". I must have missed the slide into a full theological debate.

If you found a group of women who've been through FGM, I would hazard a guess that majority wouldn't be grateful to their parents for that choice

And yet, they are often the women insisting on getting their own daughters cut.

With regards to the anti-Semitism charges, people need to draw a distinction between a religion and the practitioners of that religion.

I have seen plenty of criticism of religion on this thread, (I've dished a lot of it out myself) but I can't remember reading any criticism of individual members of Judaism or Islam. (For being Jews or Muslims)

Religious ideologies are fair game for criticism, particularly when they encourage people to do awful things (cut their children's genitals up etc)

anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews, not criticism of Judaism or religion in general.

Suburban, are all Jewish and Muslim parents "unscrupulous" in your opinion?

Please read my post again. The issue being discussed was backstreet circumcisions. And yes, I would consider anyone who accessed backstreet medical procedures for their baby to be unscrupulous, regardless of their religious beliefs.

And to compare male circumcision to Victoria Climbié

Again, please read my post, in which I stated that inaction due to fear of being accused of racism can have disastrous consequences, as it did in the case of Victoria Climbié.

Off to work now, cingoli, so any other attempts you may make to misrepresent my posts won’t be answered until tonight.

I would be interested to read a post from someone who has personal experience of male circumcision, who is upset about it as an adult? Or a social worker, is this something that children's services takes an interest in? I know they do when it's FGM, but that's actually illegal.

Lizzie - at least 75% of the people on my street are either Jewish or Muslim. I'm sure social services would be delighted to receive reports of circumcisions, especially as most of them are done by the local GP.

People keep saying its harmless, not one poster for it seems to have admitted on this thread that actually, true figures for babies maimed are not collated.

We have scraps of information though that one baby per month is taken to Birmingham hospital in a critical condition from it - that it sees 100 of babies a year damaged from it. THATS ONE UK HOSPITAL peeps! One!! Is it OK that a single baby is damaged from it? Not one person advocating it has mentioned it and yet keeps trotting out how harmless it is.

Men are having reconstructive surgery done on their privates to put back - what was bloody taken from them.

There are male groups out there getting together to stop this practise. One can well imagine until the full flow of the internet having problems pissing etc...was probably not linked to the circumcision and I imagine many men thought you HAD TO HAVE IT DONE...

I have read about men feeling totally violated, and un able to process the feelings they have that their own parents did this to them.

As for driving it underground, at the moment I dont think anyone doing it - has to have a license or any medical knowledge, it seems the baby is LUCKY if the parents have enough money to take him to somewhere half decent.

The NHS itself says its a last resort procedure and its INVASIVE.

I agree with everything you have said Suburban Rhonda.

People seem to have a very tunnel view they think - this is my religion so its what must be done but they also fail to realise millions of people also have a religion that stuff must be done in - like the one up thread that denies medical help...where is the line drawn?

Amercia used to be a huge country advocating it - as mention many times up thread but once again ignored by those wanting to shoe horn this into an anti relgion thing which I guess is exactly what certain groups will do if we start to ban it here.

Its not a religious issue its HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE.

Lizzie48

^^ THERE IS plenty of reports on line why not search them out if your truly interested MN isnt the font of all information

Just as a warning though LIZZIE some of the horrendous pictures I have seen of babies left with damaged penis is upsetting. I wish I had not seen them.