To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

[GladAllOver]

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

I think I've demonstrated very clearly that I can take the heat, thank you very much for your concern though.

Bluelady These threads are so predictable

Yes because we believe in FREEDOM - IN A MILLION AND ONE WAYS in the UK and one day - soon we will back banning circumcision except for medical grounds.

because a baby boy should be given the choice himself whether or not he wants his body chopped up.

Taking the heat by ignoring videos of screaming babies, refusing to read articles where babies are left maimed with life long damage and in worst cases DEAD....is it cool with ones head buried that far down in the sand?

The WHO is talking about a specific region on the world that has massive issues with all sorts of things - like sex education various religions and a massive aids epidemic and all kinds of strange superstitions on aids and sex, this primitive method of prevention is a basic tool in their Armour.
And most significantly where condoms are disapproved of or not widely available. It is a very poor substitute.

I watched and read all the sensationalist hysteria. I also read the first hand account of a man who has attended countless circumcisions including his own, and that of a woman who witnessed her own son's' procedures. Both those people said what other people posted does not reflect reality in this country. I'm entirely cool with accepting first hand accounts.

@hollowtree there are obviously similarities between the procedures, that can't be denied. But the damage caused by FGM is far more extreme and leaves girls traumatised for life, whereas boys tend to have it done as babies so wouldn't remember.

The main difference, though, is that circumcision is a requirement for men under the Jewish law and for Muslims in the Koran. FGM is not, but this is misunderstood by a lot of people, who think they're being obedient to their religion by carrying out the practice.

Personally, I think we need to focus firstly on protecting British girls from being mutilated. Then we can move on to a proper discussion about circumcision.

'The main difference, though, is that circumcision is a requirement for men under the Jewish law and for Muslims in the Koran. FGM is not, but this is misunderstood by a lot of people, who think they're being obedient to their religion by carrying out the practice.'

which verse in the quran does it say they have to circumcise.
also peoples religious liberty does not give them the right to damage children.

'

I can't believe anyone would think it ok to shove a metal object between the glans and foreskin of a baby boys penis in order to severe the adhesions between the two then cut a good proportion of it off without anesthesia. How can this not be as bad as FGM? Babies can die from the blood loss, even when carried out in a proper hospital. This is what happens in the USA daily. Apparently the doctors think sugar on a dummy stops the pain.

The hospitals coerce parents into this procedure as they make money from the parents and the companies buying the foreskins (which are full of stem cells) to use in the cosmetic industry.
These babies have to be strapped down, its barbaric.

Maybe I'm wrong about that. Some traditions come from their Hadiths, the traditions of the Prophet and not the Koran. There may be someone on here who can answer that.

I do know it's required by Jewish Law, but no longer required under the New Testament, so not practised by Christians.

“I watched and read all the sensationalist hysteria.”

No sensationalistic hysteria from me. Jus a simple question about consent that nobody will answer. Because they can’t.

lizzy I couldn't agree more about the point you made RE: the trauma caused in girls being older. But I just think either way it is still wrong to unnecessarily mutilate the genitalia of a non consenting child.

Personally, I think we need to focus firstly on protecting British girls from being mutilated yes but I do think we need to focus on protecting British boys too.

My SIL is a primary school teacher and one of the subjects she now needs to cover with her classes is FGM and the effects. Her school has a 52% Muslim attendance so it has to be covered there but sadly many girls are taken away during half terms and holidays and return with the procedure already done.

'Maybe I'm wrong about that. Some traditions come from their Hadiths, the traditions of the Prophet and not the Koran. There may be someone on here who can answer that. '
correct haddiths are not part of the quran though this one 'five practices are characteristics of the Fitra: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits." ( Bukhari, Book #72, Hadith #779) the same haddith that some believe argues for female circumcision fgm

what was sensationalist hysteria I dont get it.

Even the NHS who says it can happen for medical says

"Medical reasons for a boy to have a circumcision
It's rare for circumcision to be recommended for medical reasons in boys. This is because other less invasive and less risky treatments are usually available.

Less invasive and less risky treatments available?

These conditions can often be treated successfully with non-surgical treatments, which will often be tried first before circumcision is considered

Interesting how the NHS sees it invasive and risky and only used as an absolute LAST RESORT.

The anaesthetist will also visit your child before the operation. They will usually have a general anaesthetic, so they'll be unconscious throughout the procedure and unable to feel any pain or discomfort.

takes SIX weeks to fully heal.

Princess Diana saved her boys from It apparently all Royals have it done

www.marieclaire.co.uk/life/health-fitness/circumcision-male-circumcision-10604

How does circumcision affect sex?
Its effect on sex is hotly debated with some arguing circumcision can reduce sensation and sexual pleasure later in life. The foreskin contains nerves that when rubbed, stimulates the frenulum, and according to a study by the National Organisation of Circumcision Information Resources Centre, the surgery removes the five areas of the penis that are most responsive to light touch.

Some studies describe the procedure as ‘among the most painful performed in neonatal medicine’, with proof towards increases in heart rate and hormonal pain response, including increased cortisol in the blood of the patient

^^ The most Painful in NEONATAL MEDICINE increasing heart rate

Well, it’s controversial but some arguments prove yes. According to a Danish survey, boys circumcised under the age of five are twice as likely to develop autism. The survey suggested a link between the pain of the surgery and the development of ASD, arguing that circumcision trauma can have severe psychological consequences

The surgery has been linked to trauma and bodily insecurities as well as trust and confidence issues, with one campaign group (called the ‘Intactivists’) consists of men who were circumcised at birth and will do anything to get their foreskin back, even undergoing skin grafts to feel normal again. A point that is frequently brought up is the fact that boys have no protection against adults who want to perform medically unnecessary surgery on their genitals (sometimes without anaesthetic). Campaigns like Mothers Against Circumcision are trying to change this through education.

How can this not be as bad as FGM?

Are you actually serious? That's such a deeply offensive thing to say. The vast, vast majority of boys who have been circumcised are completely uneffected. That cannot be said for girls who have experienced FGM. I'm not saying that circumcision is ok, it's not, but to imply it's the same thing as FGM is really fucking ignorant.

www.intactamerica.org/resources/decision

Circumcision does not prevent urinary tract infections (UTIs) or other diseases. Over the years, the claims that circumcision prevents various diseases have repeatedly been proven to be exaggerated or outright false. UTIs occur more frequently in girls than in boys, and are treated with antibiotics. While most adult men in the United States are circumcised, our rates of sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV) are as high — or higher — than those in countries where circumcision is rare.

Angels I get what your saying but its just not as safe and fine as people make out.

I guess they have to tell themselves that...but its just not.

Seriously,

Talk about selective quoting and dodgy sources!

'A study by the National Organisation of Circumcision Information Resources Centre'

You mean the one whose acronym is nocirc and who is a campaign group against circumcision.

The NHS is a dodgy source is it? Well I suppose if I was trying to defend it I would do the same.

It must be painful to admit that actually its barbaric.

'How can this not be as bad as FGM?

Are you actually serious? That's such a deeply offensive thing to say. The vast, vast majority of boys who have been circumcised are completely uneffected. '

why does it matter which is more bad fgm and male circumcision they are both wrong and 100 percent of boys are effected as they dont have a foreskin anymore and its not offensive just because you disagree with a statement

Seriously,

Once again you are showing your talent to take things out of context and quote selectively to make your point.

Nocirc is a pressure group which you quoted a 'study' from.

Intactamerica.org is a pressure group which you chose to quote from.

Not sure where to start as this thread as exploded well beyond the original post. As a UK circumcised man - my choice twenty years ago (not religious and I have no family members that are circumcised), I can honestly say that for me (not everyone else - I feel I need to caveat so much on this thread due to the level of toxicity from some of the posters), I love the "new" me. It feels better sexually, I feel cleaner (not that I was actually dirtier before) and don't miss the extra skin. My partners during this time have all said they liked it or at least had no issue. If there is a genuine choice involved, I do not see that it is comparable to FGM which is abhorrent on all levels. I wouldn't look to introduce a blanket ban though - it would be too far reaching and would invite questions re: what about piercings, tattoos and other lifestyle choices.

My choice twenty years ago.**

That's the fundamental difference though.* I fully support your right to be circumcised as an adult. I would not support your right to have your child circumcised for anything other than medical necessity.*

lizzie48 it is NOT required by Jewish law....or how on earth is it that the majority of jews in Sweden have not had it done?

How is it that 150,000 Jews in Israel have not had it done?

Like everything written in ancient books, it turns out that this absolute cast iron necessity isn't actually necessary in the face of changing societal expectations.

And, to quote a more reputable source.

www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/newborn-male-circumcision.aspx

'After a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The AAP policy statement published Monday, August 27, says the final decision should still be left to parents to make in the context of their religious, ethical and cultural beliefs.'

To be honest I think we just have to wait for circumcision without consent to die out. Its clearly on the decline in both the Muslim and Jewish populations so sooner or later it will be gone. Shame for any babies that die in between times though....