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Original poster

To hope that we can follow Iceland in banning male circumcision

999 replies

GladAllOver · 19/02/2018 16:10

It really is time that this nasty practice is stopped.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/18/iceland-ban-male-circumcision-first-european-country

OP posts:
YoloSwaggins · 20/02/2018 14:01

I wouldn't support any religion attempting to force circumcision on non believers

Babies can't believe anything because at 8 days old their brains are like mashed potato!

PonderLand · 20/02/2018 14:09

My worry about banning circumcision for non medical reasons is that it leaves children/parents (like my son) who are waiting for reconstructive surgery in a difficult position. He has hypospaids, chordee and a hooded foreskin. None of those conditions are painful/cause discomfort so why are they provided by the NHS/encouraged by consultants/seen as medically necessary?

We are told to have it done so he feels more normal, he can pee normally, his penis will appear normal and he can have children w/o medical intervention. So what is the big difference between that and a Jewish/Muslim family wanting their son to feel normal in their community? I am worried that the lines will get blurred on what is acceptable and what is not. What is deemed medically necessary and what is not. Can anyone help me see the differences between my son and a Jewish/Muslim child? Neither have their life at risk, it is more superficial/about confidence/fitting in.

He was meant to have the op today but it got cancelled so I am worrying about what is the right thing to do for him.

StatelessPrincess · 20/02/2018 14:10

Cosmetic requirement is still a requirement Brilliant

PonderLand · 20/02/2018 14:10

Hypospadias*

hollowtree · 20/02/2018 14:15

We are told to have it done so he feels more normal, he can pee normally, his penis will appear normal and he can have children w/o medical intervention. So what is the big difference between that and a Jewish/Muslim family wanting their son to feel normal in their community

You just answered your own question. Your son needs surgery so that he can pee normally, his penis will appear normal and he can have children w/o medical intervention. Most children do not, whatever their religious background.

A family wanting their daughter to feel normal in the community by having her clitoris removed so that her husband can enjoy sex with her without her pesky orgasm getting in the way are as ignorant.

Bluelady · 20/02/2018 14:17

Making it illegal is still only a proposal in Iceland where it would affect fewer than 2,000 people.

It'll never happen here. No government would have the stomach to face the accusations of anti semitism and Islamophobia. And there are enough influential people from both faiths in political high places for the UK to even consider it.

PonderLand · 20/02/2018 14:21

Pee normally as in pee in the usual direction, he has no trouble weeing. He just wouldn't be able to wee standing up. Conceiving children - it isn't clear yet if that would be effected so it's not 100% for his benefit y'know? Nobody can see into the future and see what life would be like with or without restructuring it. It's really tough to be the one who makes that decision and reading threads like this make me more confused about what is medically necessary. Are we talking life or death? Or what a consultant/surgeon thinks?

WildWindsBlowing · 20/02/2018 14:24

Wouldn't being able to pee normally and being able to have children without intervention mean this is a medical necessity for your DC, Ponder? 14:09

I don't know whether it is accurate, but 'The Parent Magazine' I linked before says there is 0.5% risk of complications following circumcision for a baby less than 1, the risk jumps by 10 fold at an older age - if that is any comfort, Ponder, if you decide to go ahead with allowing the operation. This must be worrying for you though.

YoloSwaggins · 20/02/2018 14:25

I think "medically necessary" can start from "what will improve your life, reduce discomfort or mitigate risk" up to "life or death".

Bluelady · 20/02/2018 14:26

How old is he, PonderLand? If your consultant is recommending surgery on the NHS I'd lay money that it's a procedure that needs to be done. Do bear in mind that a lot of the comments on this thread are histrionic and based on very little knowledge.

noeffingidea · 20/02/2018 14:28

Otoplasty is carried out under exceptional circumstances in children over 5, usually to relieve psychological suffering, if the child is being bullied eg, not just on the say so of the parents.

GColdtimer · 20/02/2018 14:31

Predictably anyone who thinks circumcision for non medical purposes is wrong is shouted down for religious persecution.

No supporter of circumcision on this thread has given a compelling reason why you need your son to have part of their penis removed. And no, "because or religion/culture expects it" us not a reason. Otherwise why not support sharia law? Is that not done in the name of religion. Can someone tell me the difference?

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 20/02/2018 14:35

wild I have read numerous stuff last night and today saying in fact babies urinary tracts are getting damaged by it and also as said up thread there is no coherant recording of admissions due to botched circs...

Africa is a different kettle of fish entirely

Eatalot · 20/02/2018 14:36

Religios persecution or stopping ritualised child abuse.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 20/02/2018 14:37

Do bear in mind that a lot of the comments on this thread are histrionic and based on very little knowledge.

^^ Blue would you mind commenting on whether you have read anything linked to on here>? Babies being admitted into a and e due to complications is not histrionics.

Its fact and truth . How can someone be so blind and head in sand?

Its like me as a catholic saying the Magdalene laundries never happened and it didnt hurt the women and of course babies were not taken off the girls and murdered....silly histrionics?

PonderLand · 20/02/2018 14:37

Thank you @YoloSwaggins, I do believe the penis he has been born with will cause him issues in later life but mainly issues to his confidence. Not pain/discomfort/death, yet you see the surgery statistics for these operations and you see that they can and often do lead to further operations/pain/discomfort/twists in the penis/fistulas/leaks/infections etc. What is best to risk? His mental health or his overall health. Sorry for derailing the thread.

PonderLand · 20/02/2018 14:41

@Bluelady he is 20m, he was diagnosed at birth and we've seen two (male) consultants/surgeons who have given us their honest opinions on what is for the best. Of course today at the hospital I was given a consent form to sign and they told me all the issues that could happen, the statistics etc and I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the risk, and if it's 'necessary' enough.

Ifailed · 20/02/2018 14:46

No government would have the stomach to face the accusations of anti semitism and Islamophobia.

Agree. Even the slightest hint of displeasure with the State of Israel is immediately labelled as anti-Semitic. Any politician trying to even talk about controlling circumcision will bring howls of protest and a rapid example of Godwin's law.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 20/02/2018 14:46

Ponder its a big decision at least your giving it proper thought not just rolling along with it because....that's what we have always done.

StatelessPrincess · 20/02/2018 14:46

noeffingidea In some countries it's performed on children as young as 3, in the U.K it's sometimes done on children of 4 and often on the parents say so and not because the child is being bullied. The parents want to reduce the chance of the child being bullied later on. It is certainly not only ''carried out under exceptional circumstances''.
Lots of boys who are circumcised have it done around this age too, they are not always babies.

grannytomine · 20/02/2018 14:47

PonderLand it is difficult and I sympathise. One of my children needed surgery when he was a bit older than your son, he was just 4. The operation wasn't life saving, it was sight saving and if he hadn't had it he would have been blind in one eye. I agonised, people live perfectly normal lives with one eye but on the otherhand he could have an accident to his good eye and then it would be nice to have a spare. He had the surgery. It was only recently that I plucked up the courage to ask him if he thought I had done the right thing and he said yes. I hope that is true but I have a feeling he wouldn't have said otherwise because he wouldn't want to upset me.

Good luck with your decision.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 20/02/2018 14:47

But at the same time no government can allow a two tier system for the abuse and safety of children.

ClaireAnne1976 · 20/02/2018 14:50

Comparing it to FGM is ridiculous. Not the same at all.
I haven’t had my sons circumcised but I actually think it’s cleaner and more hygienic. It’s a personal preference and banning is ridiculous.

SersioulycanitgetWORSE · 20/02/2018 14:51

It was probably a reason in the States too stateless I have read about loads of men wanting their sons done just because - the son will look like the dad....

which is bizarre in itself when all our bodies are very different from each other, I doubt my daughters will ever compare labia or breast with me. As it drops out of habit = habit and fashion based on medical evidence in the states - it will dwindle away and it will be the norm to have the penis you were born with.

children bully each other over so much its far better to parent well and teach empathy and kindness that we all look different anyway - people with disabilities look different etc than try and shape the human body itself to stop un kindness.

YoloSwaggins · 20/02/2018 14:52

@PonderLand, if the doctors recomment it and NHS is willing to pay for it, I think that's a strong medical case.

My partner just got it done because he developed a condition where his foreskin wouldn't pull back, bled and he wasn't sure he'd be able to have sex without condoms (luckily that's our method of choice anyway, but in future if TTC then would be a problem). He wasn't in pain but the doctor said if he left it, there was significant chance it would affect the pipework and a 5% chance of cancer.

The op/healing went well and he is really glad he got it done! Hasn't affected sensitivity. It is generally a very safe and standard procedure - obviously all operations carry a risk but relatively it is an easy one. It's your decision to make though. Don't be put off by horror stories and there are horror stories for absolutely everything.