To think there's a valid discussion to be had about the ethics of surrogacy?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just what the title says.

I know some women become gestational surrogates out of altruism, and that in some places (not the UK) women can be paid quite a bit to be surrogates. But I still think the ethics of it is worth discussing.

I'm curious how other people see this. I worry that it's so easy for women to be exploited. And it does seem to me that there's a gendered issue here. I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

Any issue where someone is exploited is obviously an issue, pregnancy related or not.
If they are not being exploited and doing it willingly I have no issue with it. Why should someone else be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with regards her own body.

Yanbu, but there's a very wide spectrum, a woman doing it for a close friend or family member is completely different to a woman being paid for the use of her womb.

I think if you're going to have a valid discussion about surrogacy you have to be very clear about where you're talking about. All this talk of poor, desperate women being exploited into childbearing for money doesn't apply to the UK - there are protocols in place that keep on top of this.
The US is also one that is highly unlikely to allow exploitation - many states have 'criteria' about who can go forward, so I believe women who are on welfare for example cannot become a surrogate.

If however you're talking India, which was highly exploited by UK & US IPs, then the discussion takes a different turn. Although India has now changed its laws so that too changes the discussion.

Men don't 'get' pregnancy is difficult/dangerous?

But they are usually just one part of the parents who are using the surrogate? What about the woman who is also using the surrogate?

Is this a veiled dig at Tom Daley and his partner?

YY, agree with that bubble.

mustbe - YY, absolutely. The problem is, these things do apply to the UK, because while you cannot employ someone in the UK to be your surrogate, you can travel elsewhere, can't you? So it seems to me that washing our hands of it and saying 'well, it happened somewhere else, we don't know anything about it' isn't the answer.

I guess I also think it's a debate worth having because I get the impression some people really don't see pregnancy as a big deal. As if a woman's just carrying a baby around for 9 months while her life continues as normal.

YANBU. There is room for discussion on this issue, given that it impacts upon women's rights.

Personally I think that a woman should only have a baby because she wants to have one. Doing it for money is as questionable (in my eyes) as getting pregnant because you want a council house, or a Catholic priest offering £10k to the 18-y-o he got pregnant if she keeps quiet and has an abortion.

Yes, this means that single-sex couples won't be able to "have a baby together", but there are an awful lot of children already alive who are in need of loving parents. Adopt a child, rather than persuading a woman to have one on your behalf.

Cross post

london, no, not a veiled dig at anyone (though I deliberately didn't make reference to Daly, or Owen Jones, or any specific men, because I think the discussion might be shut down if we get into specifics).

I think this debate absolutely applies to women too. I'm sure there are women who are callous or unaware. But it strikes me that a gay man is often in a position where he just doesn't have that level of familiarity with pregnancy, and that's a possible concern.

Plenty of women are also unaware - I've seen rhetoric coming out of pro-life groups that talk as if 9 months of pregnancy is nothing. But I do think there's a gendered slant here.

LRD but countries such as India have now banned surrogacy from IPs outside of the country. So even though UK IPs might decide they want to, they're unable to.

Each country having a solid legal framework would prevent the risk of anybody being exploited. But the UK & the US for example have the best framework to prevent exploitation on both sides. Usually (and we've seen it on two threads so far) people say its surrogates being exploited - you just can't be that generic.

I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

Agree with London about this being a dig at gay couples. Many many women use surrogates too, do they "get it"? Does Kim Kardashian "get it"?

The adoption argument is always rattled out aimed at gay couples. Why is it never thrown at hetero couples who use IVF or donor eggs/sperm?

I know India has. I didn't think there was a universal ban? So the debate is worth having, isn't it?

I don't think I am being generic at all. I'm thinking about it. If I were better at pregnancy it would be something I would want to consider (but then, IME it is very common for women who struggle to stay pregnant to say that!).

milk, as I say, I am sure there are women (and straight men, certainly!) who are callous and unaware too.

And, you know, plenty of people do debate straight couples doing IVF, or lesbians having babies, or whatever. You may not have happened across these debates, but I assure you, they happen.

Taking away a woman's right to make that decision for herself is surely counterproductive?
The technology will soon be available for artificial wombs... Would this be better?

In the UK you can only use a surrogate if you live within the UK. I don't know for sure the rulings in the US, but I do know it can be tricky for UK IPs bringing a baby back if born to US surrogate - the whole issue of PR etc.

I'm all for the surrogacy discussion. I think it's great & it opens people's eyes. I just think we need to be careful about lumping all surrogates (and IPs) together under one big 'exploitation' umbrella.

On a side note, Kim Kardashian used a social surrogate i believe, which in the UK is illegal - and for good reason imo!! Even so, the rules are the same, so highly unlikely she exploited anybody. In fact i would go so far as to say surrogates in the US are more able to hold IPs to ransom because it is commercialised

It almost seems like you are saying women can't think for themselves here..... surrogates have to be 100% aware of what they are doing

Men can only be guided by that

I'm know those debates happen for many different reasons, but your comment I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is. was a clear dig at gay couples using surrogates.

There was a piece on the BBC news site the other day about Ukraine becoming the surrogacy capital of Europe
www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42845602

London that always seems to be the impression i get too. Poor, vulnerable women being so easily exploited into something. In India, yes, which is why they changed the laws (anyone see the story about the Aus couple with the twins?). In the UK? No way. It is a relationship, one that is built up & strengthened over time

Definitely not saying women can't think for themselves. I can totally understand why a woman might well choose to become a surrogate.

However, I also think that if you are weighing up your health and your body's capacity to reproduce against what, to you, is a lot of money, you are in a vulnerable position.

No, milk, it wasn't a dig. Really.

I do genuinely think gay men can sometimes be misogynists, just like straight men sometimes can.

Do you think that's impossible?

Some gay men are pretty isolated from the realities of women's lives, for obvious reasons.

DropBear that article is what people should be fighting about. Surrogates being able to be offered as much or as little as IPs want, no real criteria. I can however see why IPs would flock there, given that they recognise the biological parents as the 'true' parents even pre-birth. One of the big worries for IPs here (UK) is the fact a surrogate can simply change their mind at any time upto the PO

I had a very horrible pregnancy and birth and view surrogacy as a very risky thing for a woman to do. I would love another child but wouldn't put another woman at risk of what I went through so we will have no more children.

I would hope all surrogates are carefully looked after physically and get very good counselling before and after the event.

I am very nervous about poor women being exploited as well.

LRD i was a surrogate here in the UK. Hand on heart my IPs were in a more vulnerable position than me throughout, right up until I signed the parental order. I literally held all the cards; I could have held them to ransom for more money, refused to hand over the baby.

Reading your post I'm not entirely sure what you are saying then as you are refuting everything here other posters are asking

Spit it out..... what are you really saying op?

Any ethical discussion about surrogacy should imo be led by those involved in it - the birth and rearing mothers should have first voice on this. I'd feel uncomfortable diving in with opinions on something so complex that I haven't had to endure,