To think there's a valid discussion to be had about the ethics of surrogacy?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just what the title says.

I know some women become gestational surrogates out of altruism, and that in some places (not the UK) women can be paid quite a bit to be surrogates. But I still think the ethics of it is worth discussing.

I'm curious how other people see this. I worry that it's so easy for women to be exploited. And it does seem to me that there's a gendered issue here. I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

I think there are huge ethical issues around gamete donation as well as surrogacy. Increasing numbers of couples go abroad for donors where the protections are much less limited than in the U.K.

I think, in order to be a valid discussion, the views of the surrogates themselves need to be heard and considered. And Ive come across very few discussions where this has been the case.

barbarian, one poster has said she's a surrogate.

I agree with you, though, and I would be interested to hear.

User i didn't use an agency. I was classed as an independent surrogate. However from the moment my pregnancy was registered with the midwife the authorities were informed - as is protocol when you use a midwife in the UK. They're bound by law to register it with social services, as are hospitals. I don't know of any surrogate who has managed to bypass that stage tbh.

Agencies are not at all the best way forward if we are discussing exploitation. Except the exploitation is usually geared towards the other side; it is illegal to profit financially from surrogacy, and it is illegal to 'fix' a match. Yet agencies make a fortune from surrogate matches. The BSC is one such agency...the two gay co-founders now reside in the US because there are 'more opportunities'

Whiskeyowl That's why nurses have had their pay raised when there are 40,000 missing is it?

That's why mothers are paid for the reproductive labour they do?

Because of the market?

Cyprus used to be the go to for IVF surrogacy because of cost - the UK clinics actively increase their costs when they hear 'surrogacy', some by as much as £5k. However Cyprus don't allow transfers for same sex couples.

as is protocol when you use a midwife in the UK. They're bound by law to register it with social services Is that right? Do you have a reference for the law/protocol?

mustbe I agree absolutely that not all are exploited and I also feel personally it is a valid choice for many.

However my experience is very different from yours. The surrogate was 28 weeks when the pregnancy was lost. Her midwife was well aware and although the situation had been referred due to safeguarding concerns there was no further involvement with any other professionals. This was potentially because the husband of the future mum was the biological father? However, the young lady was most definately acting as a surrogate and would not have been doing so if she had not been vulnerable to begin with.

I'd honestly love to be able to open up the support groups for surrogates & IPs so that the outside world could see how amazing it is (here at least). Two surrogate friends of mine have in the last week given birth & it is tear jerking to see IPs with their babies. It's a bond for life, & many surrogates go on to do sibling journeys for their IPs

I also wouldn't really refer to Marx when considering the failure of the patriarchy to recognise the value of reproductive Labour. Because, oh year, he didn't bother.

User i'd have to find my paperwork, when we registered with our MW we were handed a wad of information on their 'surrogate policy' - my MW was very clear that if she didn't report it she could be legally reprimanded.
Our hospital also did a follow up referral to SS at 30 weeks - we had a meeting re the birth plan due to hospital policies about babies leaving without mum.

Monro i'd question there how the hell no safeguarding was made, surely it would be obvious from the start that she was vulnerable?? To me that's a massive failing on many parts.

I want to think that this should be the choice of an individual, just like how abortion is, but there is a child as a result. For that reason alone I don't think sperm or egg donation should be allowed and I think surrogacy is also a very bad idea.

I think we should be looking at adoption protocols and changing the way adoption is managed. There should be much more help available for families adopting and the criteria for families should be updated to reflect the world we are in. I have disabled DC and I work FT. It is possible to do it IF you have the right help in place and the child is young enough when adopted.

I'd love to see stricter protocol pulled in to the UK for surrogacy regarding a few things. A few loose ends being tied off as it were.

I'd also love to see other countries tighten their laws too. And there are groups that are working on this because, as these threads show, the bad eggs undermine the amazing ones

You're confusing two things, wazflim - socially reproductive labour, that is not paid, and reproductive labour that is paid.

And actually, there are several moments in Capital where Marx mentions social reproduction as an unpaid yet necessary feature of capitalism. The idea very much originates with him, even if he didn't explore it very comprehensively. Thankfully, many women writers and activists have done so since, working in a Marxian tradition while criticising Marx himself for not discussing this further.

I am not, to be honest, remotely concerned about children of surrogacy. I would imagine their chances of loving parents are perfectly good.

But I do think that, if we continue to act as if pregnancy is no big deal, we're making it harder for all pregnant women.

In an ideal world, what mustbe is describing would be celebrated and talked about as a really valuable, important thing. IME, it isn't. Surrogates are hidden away as if it's something shameful.

I really do think the surrogate should be able to change her mind at any point up until a fixed point after the birth - the time of adoption I want to say but not sure if that's the right terminology.

mustbe again, I agree as did many other professionals. As it stood, no one apart from her midwife had had any contact at that point although a meeting had been scheduled with the safeguarding midwife for the following week however the IP (is that the correct term?) was insistent this was just a formality prior to the paperwork being drawn up which would give custody to herself and her DH.

Want2b yes yes a thousand times yes what you said about adoption. I understand that social services have to be careful because of the history of some of the children, but having seen some dumbass reasons for refusal it boggles my mind why people think trotting out 'you should adopt' is the easy option. Many of the IPs i know who have used surrogates were turned down for adoption - none of them are paedos (unlike the couple in aus who went abroad), none of them have violent histories. They are held to a much, much higher scrutiny than people who can have their own children. Somebody said on MN the other day that many biological parents would be turned down to adopt their own kids. I think its true

whiskey owl I don't think you know what socially reproductive labour is. And what reproductive labour are you claiming is paid?

I worry that it's so easy for women to be exploited. And it does seem to me that there's a gendered issue here. I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

Absolutely LRD - I'm finding the current surrogacy story in The Archers rather unsettling. It's commodifying women's bodies. Adam Macy in particular seems to have an attitude that he has rights over a woman's womb.

I feels very much like buying a woman's body - from that point of view, it's too close to prostitution and slavery for me.

Plus, 'you should adopt' always seems to me disrespectful to adoptive parents who often to an incredibly hard job.

Monro that is sickening. And as a surrogate myself i'm disgusted to read that. The support & information that we all share between ourselves is invaluable, that poor woman slipped through far too many nets. Even now, i am pregnant with my own DS & i have had to have meetings with MW & social services to confirm this is not another surro pregnancy. It is still redflagged on my file three years later.

I think the reason surrogacy isn't always talked about is because IPs & surrogates face so much abuse. I was given so much because i carried for a gay couple using my own egg; so i was handing my child to two paedos & abandoning her. Her dads are fricking amazing & she is not my child. To me biology isn't what makes a family

raging, I must check that out - what's the storyline?

@Lichtie "Why should someone else be able to tell a woman what she can and can't do with regards her own body."

Well, for example, it would be illegal for anyone in the UK to sell their kidney. Is this wrong? Where do you stop?

Commoditising the human body is interesting. On one hand, it's totally normal (most of us go out and take our bodies off to work every day and get paid for it). On the other hand, it's a slippery slope (do we want the poorest members of society to be obliged to sell their organs before we give them benefits, for example?). And, in the middle, probably something with a bit of a grey area, like prostitution.

wizflam - socially reproductive labour is the labour that goes into reproducing social relations. So things like cooking, cleaning, ironing, grocery shopping, housework, and all kinds of care duties including child care. It is usually unpaid - there was a big campaign in the 1970s to change this and secure "wages for housework" and a big debate in the left over whether this was a progressive way forward or not. What everybody did agree on, however, was that capitalism depends upon unpaid socially reproductive labour to be able to function, or - to put it another way - waged work requires a certain amount of socially reproductive work to maintain itself. So a stay-at-home parent who is doing all of the cooking, cleaning and childcare as half of a couple that also includes a waged worker isn't some kind of adjunct to the wage - this labour goes into maintaining the wage, it is necessary to the wage.

Paid reproductive labour would be something like surrogacy, where the labour is actually that of carrying a child.