To think there's a valid discussion to be had about the ethics of surrogacy?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just what the title says.

I know some women become gestational surrogates out of altruism, and that in some places (not the UK) women can be paid quite a bit to be surrogates. But I still think the ethics of it is worth discussing.

I'm curious how other people see this. I worry that it's so easy for women to be exploited. And it does seem to me that there's a gendered issue here. I'm not sure men 'get' how difficult and potentially dangerous pregnancy is.

I agree. I think there’s always a question of ethics when we pay people to use their bodies - prostitution, buying organs from live donors, paying surrogates.

If my pregnancies and births had been easy I would do it like a shot for women with medical issues as I was infertile myself. Unfortunately they weren't so I can't take the risk.

And I'd do it for free too

Do you think that's impossible? - No of course not, anyone can be a misogynist, or any other kind of "ist".

I don't think using a surrogate is a misogynistic act. Ever.

london - just saying I think it's worth debating.

I do think it's possible for surrogates to be exploited, and I don't think we can wash our hands of that exploitation just because it happens overseas. I do think it's gendered.

The last time I responded to this question I was told I was homophobic. My view is that it is wrong to deliberately deny a child a mother or father. I understand that some children have bad parents whom they would be better off without. I understand that some adults have alcoholic mothers and feckless fathers and wouldn't have missed them. That's not the point. I really believe it is ethically wrong to deliberately deny a child the right to know its mother or father.

That's what gay surrogacy means, usually - unless it is an arrangement between friends.

Because of my view I was told I was homophobic because surrogacy is the only way a gay couple can have a child and to deny them this route would be discriminating.

I disagree. My sons godfathers are a gay couple. I'm the last person to be homophobic. But I respect a woman's role in the creation of human life. I am very uncomfortable with mothers being left off birth certificates so that two men can say they are a baby's sole parents. I abhor the use of women's bodies as commodities.

Elton sadly if you did it for free you would be classed as being exploited by CAFCASS & the courts. Ironic really. Surrogates can't really win!

We definitely shouldn't ignore the exploitation that happens overseas, but by the same token we shouldn't be basing our entire argument for or against surrogacy on what happens overseas. It's dangerous territory.

The exploitation isn't gendered though - as many women use surrogates as men.

If we see surrogacy as exploitation then surely we must also see sperm donation & egg donation down the same path? Men & women pay for both after all.

Live organ donation surely is worse exploitation? Someone literally puts their life at risk - and risks their future health - to donate an organ without any recompense at all.

If this is aimed at men not 'getting' it, presumably it's about gay men wanting a child via surrogate? What if it were a lesbian couple?

I think there will also be 'good' and 'bad' examples of surrogacy so each needs to be considered on own merits.

Kidney donation is fundamentally altruistic but not without risk or possibility of exploitation.

Why are wombs special?

I get paid for the use of my hands. Why not my womb?

As a feminist I think you need to take a long, hard look at why the patriarchy had to invent heterosexual marriage for childrearing to take place in.

Tom Daly and his partner are completely denying the true cost of reproductive labour to the woman involved by choosing to have a child with a surrogate (if that is what they are doing).

This would not be the case if they were adopting, or for couples using donor sperm or donor eggs. In fact people who go through fertility treatment arguably go through more reproductive labour.

There is a certain misogynism among gay men that goes unchallenged, and I don't think that questioning the use of surrogates by gay men is homophobic actually.

mustbemad17

I don't think sperm donation is exploitation as there isn't any risk in donating sperm

I'm not as sure about egg donation - I believe there are risks and some raised level of cancers from the drugs to stimulate the eggs to be released - however, I believe a lot of donated eggs are from women already undertaking that procedure for themselves and 'gifting' the others.

Live organ donation is very similar to surrogacy in my mind, because I know someone who died in childbirth and I also had a very difficult pregnancy that left me with life long problems. I also note that the recipient of an organ is normally very close to death without it, whereas the recipient of a baby is normally just someone that wants a baby.

I don't think life is without risks and people choosing to donate an organ or a baby are adults capable of understanding what they are doing - but I do think it is an ethical issue and that everyone involved should have all the information and understand what they are doing.

"All this talk of poor, desperate women being exploited into childbearing for money doesn't apply to the UK"

I disagree, it does apply in the UK. I have recently been in contact with a young woman who was recruited to be a surrogate via a Facebook page. She was vulnerable due to her mental health. The prospective mother? (Sorry, do not know the correct term) was very forthright and a strong character. The surrogate was being paid expenses. Unfortunately the pregnancy did not end well which had a massive effect on the surrogate.

Heterosexual couples use surrogates too. Are they too denying the reproduction cost to women?

Grass there is a big cry out for egg donors at the minute, so i suspect the number of women who donate going onto have their own IVF could be questioned. I'd definitely be interested in the stats on that one tho.

"Tom Daly and his partner are completely denying the true cost of reproductive labour to the woman involved by choosing to have a child with a surrogate "

Lots of jobs take a physical toll on the body or involve a degree of physical danger. I can't really see how voluntary surrogacy is different to that. It's an exchange of a certain amount of time for a certain amount of money, at a rate set by a market.

I'm not sure that it is true to give the impression that UK surrogacy is entirely free from exploitation. The difficulty is that if there is no egg/embryo transfer then people can make their own arrangements and the law only becomes involved at the point at which they apply for a parental order or there is a dispute about what should happen to the child. This case is a pretty awful example of people www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2016/34.html making arrangements with strangers through social media and it looks pretty much like the exploitation of a vulnerable person. It's also summarised here.

I am sure that your experience mustbemad17 was very different and organised with reputable agencies etc but it's difficult for the law to control people acting outside of that.

Just to add, I think a lot of the debate around surrogacy occurs because of the failure to recognise the level of exploitation and vulnerability women, including those within heterosexual marriages, are still vulnerable to in 2018. Surrogacy just sheds an uncomfortable light on the capitalist heteropatriarchy that is usually hidden due to the deification of certain types of motherhood that are allowed to exist within it.

Yes, sometimes they are, mustbe.

I think variants on the same issues apply to egg donation, and IVF, and sperm donation, and so on.

But I think surrogacy is a particular type of issue, because I do think it contributes to the widespread perception that women are just incubators and pregnancy isn't a potentially harmful process.

It's true there are also risks associated with donating your eggs, and people don't realise this. (Again, that's women.)

grass there can be emotional 'risks' involved with sperm donation, same as with egg donation

Actually I've just remembered that in that case there was an egg donor but the transfer took place in Cyprus so any protocol that a UK clinic would use was easy to avoid.

Monro it has happened in the UK, not disputing that. But it is rare, exceptionally rare. I know of one surrogate who was vulnerable mentally, she was cajouled into it by a 'fixer' for want of a better word. It caused absolute uproar & CAFCASS as well as solicitors actively involved in surrogacy immediately jumped all over it. It never goes unnoticed, usually because there is a support network within the surrogacy world dedicated to ensuring everyone is happy.

I still don't think we can unilaterally say surrogates are exploited - and by extension that IPs are abusive bastards (which is the implication). I have many tales of surrogates who have quite literally held their IPs to ransom...yet everybody seems to believe they are the bad guys

Whiskeyowl I don't believe that wages and surrogacy pay (if it even happens) are determined by the market. I don't really believe in the free market at all!

"Whiskeyowl I don't believe that wages and surrogacy pay (if it even happens) are determined by the market. I don't really believe in the free market at all!"

Of course they're determined by a market. All wages are. You don't have to be a free market advocate to think that - it's pure Marx (Capital vol 1 covers this extensively).