If you don’t see the issue with TW being classed as women please read this.

[bambambini]

Especially if you have daughters who play sports. Do we really want to have “woman” “girl” “female” totally redifined so that sny msle can say they are a woman? If yes- are you really ok with your daughters facing this now and in the future?

amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html?__twitter_impression=true

As an example, let's consider the 100m: The current men's world record is 9.58 seconds, set by Jamaica's Usain Bolt in 2009, while the women's world record of 10.49 seconds set by American Florence Griffith-Joyner in 1988 remains unbroken.

Like a PP, I have always been a strong defender of trans rights. I wouldn't (previously) have had the slightest concern about a trans female sharing a room with my daughter on school trips, as discussed in a thread a year or two ago. I say previously, because these trans activists are seriously damaging my view of trans women generally. Previously I would have said 'what would someone have to gain by marking themselves out like that if it doesn't genuinely represent how they feel'. Now it's all too clear.

Trans activists are damaging the cause of reasonable trans women. They often seem to be lesbian (!) and quite apart from their advantage in sporting fields there seems to be an obvious advantage to them in gaining access to women's spaces.

If someone genuinely feels they were born the wrong gender and wants to change that, they should be accorded all consideration whilst progressing down the surgical path. That consideration doesn't necessarily extend to being allowed to access spaces needed by vulnerable women or competing in women's sports or being 'women's officers', but they should be able to use the ladies loo.

If someone just fancies dressing as a woman or is gender fluid, they should be treated with respect but it honestly isn't reasonable for them to expect to automatically invade women's spaces on a whim. I agree with a PP that more gender-neutral third spaces/sporting categories may be appropriate.

Returning to the 100m world record, have a look at this very long list of BRITISH male best times. Let me think for a moment, why on earth might a fast-ish man start considering embracing their female side... Funnily enough they've listed down as far as 10.49 seconds, the current female WORLD record:

www.gbrathletics.com/uk/ma99.htm

I have to admit not being particularly knowledgable about this subject, but I haven't seen or heard anything from trans men about their experiences and feelings about their using male toilets, changing rooms, etc, or how other men feel about this? I just wondered if there was a similar level of contention.

Whiskyowl doesn't like sport therefore all sports are "stupid" and the entire world should stop playing things that people enjoy and replace it with something that everyone can play. Like monopoly maybe, I'm sure that would draw in huge crowds of spectators AND it would certainly keep youngsters fit

It's so naive to think that a certain type of man won't take advantage of things like competitive sports or access to women's changing rooms and toilets. Yet some people are so desperate to be liberal and right on that they prioritise this above pure common sense. Or, as we have seen on this thread, minimise it because it will only be a few. Sorry, but even if that is correct (and it won't be, if there are publicised advantages to it, e.g. a TIM winning the women's title at Wimbledon), how many women is it ok to sacrifice? One woman with a broken neck from a tackle from someone with the fully grown body of a man? Ten women denied spaces in a women's shelter because of a full on bearded man like "Danielle" muscato taking up the spots (and never mind what his presence might do to the vulnerable women in the shelter, because his right to feel like a woman obviously outweighs their right to safety)? One hundred girls deterred from sport because what's the point when the stronger competitors keep beating them? One thousand women and young girls under the eyes of perverts and paedos as they try to wash/dry/dress themselves at the gym or in a shop?

whiskyowl the only weak thing on here is your argument. You seem to conflate physical weakness with mental weakness and lower worth. To be fair, that's what patriarchal society has been doing for thousands of years though.

Nobody is saying that women are less than men, simply that we are smaller and do not have the physical strength. That is why even if women are shown to be violent in some relationship, the risk to a man of female violence is nowhere near what it is the other way around.
Why should we have to give up sporting activities? Any activity that involves moving our bodies will usually involve men being able to use their strength to their advantage. Unless we all play chess and sit on our arses, it's something we have to confront and make allowances for.

Using your logic, would you say that we should not have the paralympic games because that would be to reinforce the idea that people with disabilities are not as capable as able bodied people? Of course not. But it would be unfair to make them compete with able bodied people because they would inevitably lose.

Any gender neutrality is inevitably going to be to the detriment of women and to the advantage of men. We can have gender neutrality when we have complete equality. In sport, that is physically impossible so it will never happen.

Read it, still love and support trans women. Terfs are like female mra.

Personally I think- as so often - we are using incorrect syntax and thereby getting in a muddle with language. Men can consider themselves women and vice versa as much as they want but that doesn't make the men female or the women male. When it comes to sport, changing rooms, toilets or whatever, the definition should be male/female. If a person undergoes gender reassignment only then should the personal label change. Having one sex in the spaces of the other just because they 'feel' like it is open to all sorts of abuses. And don't get me started on 'cis women', I'm female, and if I was conflicted about it that wouldn't give me the right to find another label for those who are not. Seriously, have we, as a society, not got bigger issues to fix? People have experimented with their sexuality since the beginning of time I'm sure, but it's only recently that it has become under such public scrutiny. Its time we stopped being so involved in other people's sex lives, especially those of strangers.

I have to admit not being particularly knowledgable about this subject, but I haven't seen or heard anything from trans men about their experiences and feelings about their using male toilets, changing rooms, etc, or how other men feel about this? I just wondered if there was a similar level of contention.

I think that is a no, although sometimes you hear the odd lone voice. Trans men are not a threat to men though and they will never see them as 'real men'. They will always be physically weaker and will never threaten to take over men's spaces and experiences. But oddly enough, they are also significantly less aggressive and vocal than trans women.... Wonder why....

Maybe there would be more uproar from men if the TRAs turned their attention to calling them out for not dating or sleeping with someone with a penis. But again, that won't happen because conveniently many of the TRAs are 'lesbians' (ie heterosexual males) and therefor the 'cis-lesbians' cop the abuse for refusing to date them.

Or women could continue playing sports either with other women or solo, and sporting bodies could recognize that having trans women play contact sports with women is neither safe not fair, and everyone could carry on as if they hadn't lost their damn minds.

Except the person who wants her daughter playing rugby with teenage boys, for whom it's clearly already too late.

@EleanorXx Read it, still love and support trans women. Terfs are like female mra.

Can you just define your understanding of a trans woman please?
Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing. I fear we're not.

Susan - I'm not saying "let's not have sports". Read my post again. I'm saying "Let's have different sports, that measure achievement in a more egalitarian way". Let's not keep a set of standards that are inherently going to ensure that men almost inevitably run faster, jump higher, and outperform women.

Put it this way - what would sport have looked like if the last 2000 years had been a matriarchy?

I'm making a plea to set aside the status quo and actually think radically about this.

"Using your logic, would you say that we should not have the paralympic games because that would be to reinforce the idea that people with disabilities are not as capable as able bodied people? Of course not. But it would be unfair to make them compete with able bodied people because they would inevitably lose."

Have you actually compared the times of blade runners and wheelchair racers to so-called 'able-bodied' runners?

@whiskyowl Susan - I'm not saying "let's not have sports". Read my post again. I'm saying "Let's have different sports, that measure achievement in a more egalitarian way". Let's not keep a set of standards that are inherently going to ensure that men almost inevitably run faster, jump higher, and outperform women.

Ace - let's hear your alternative proposal.

Although tbh I don't really care that men can "run faster, jump higher, and outperform women" because I (if I were such an elite athlete! ) would not be competing against them, I'd be competing against women and those records. So their achievements don't really matter to much to me. Much as if you take sugar in your tea and I don't.

@malificent7 - you talk about separate trans teams as something you support. I think many people would agree. But to support that makes you 'transphobic' in the eyes of the TRAs. You are separating them and saying they're living as women but different. Unless you accept them as women, no ifs, no buts, bearded or not, penis or not, then you are still denying them.

But the point is that you're competing only against women BECAUSE the standards of measurement are such that they favour men. That's the reason for the gender divide, right?

Matriarchal sports is an interesting thought experiment. I think perhaps a more collective than individual approach, focused on mixed teams (MFT) could be one way forward.

I think a lot of men are simply not aware of how much stronger they are than women.

My ex was surprised that our daughter was taught in single sex groups for PE at high school. It simply hadn't occurred to him that to do otherwise was unfair and dangerous. (He had been to an all boys school himself, so the issue hadn't arisen).

Men who are not physically abusive do not have the experience of using their strength against a woman and may misjudge how much stronger they are.

It is very possible that a transwoman may genuinely believe her reduced muscle compared to pre hormone treatment makes her the same as a woman. Or a man who is weak and small compared to other men, may believe he is comparable to a woman.

But they're not. And we should point this out, even if it does upset some peoples beliefs. Even if muscle strength is reduced and the person goes through full sex reassignment surgery, biological males have a larger, more robust skeleton, male muscle attachments, bigger heart and lungs, narrower pelvis. So can never compete fairly against biological females in most sports.

My friend was attacked by her ex partner, who punched her 3 times in the face, he shattered her eye socket, her cheekbone and she has permanent nerve damage. Just imagine for a second, that he self ID'd as a woman, and went into amateur MMA/cage fighting.... this shit is real, and extremely dangerous.

Typical AFL tackles

Men:

||m.youtube.com/watch?v=buYUPnj2zco||

Women's:

||m.youtube.com/watch?v=KvXSlgCMfho||

...And there's always a few fist fights involved... imagine this size 15 wearing man tackling women... 😐.

Matriarchal sports is an interesting thought experiment. I think perhaps a more collective than individual approach, focused on mixed teams (MFT) could be one way forward.

I compete sometimes against men in a fun league set into ability. I also play in a county league in mixed teams against other mixed teams - it’s ok but i prefer plsying competitively against women because it’s obvious that men usually vastly outperform women and i hate feeling like the weaker link their to make up the numbers.

Also played another women’s team sport against a NZ navy team (mostly men. The men we’re nicely holding back but the difference in size and speed was too obvious.

"Is it that some women are so programmed to be subordinate that they really believe the desires of a few men should be fulfilled despite the physical damage they will cause to women?"

But I'm not talking about the desires of a few men, I'm talking about the desires of trans people. I have no desire, any more than anyone else, for a random man to pretend he identifies as a woman simply to get ahead in sports. I'm not brainwashed into supporting the rights of men over women. But I do get lost with this idea that we should promote women's rights above all else. I wouldn't teach my kids to put their needs before the needs of perfectly nice other people, and so I don't see why I should view my rights as a woman as sacred and untouchable when pitched against rights of a trans woman - I genuinely believe we should have the same rights,

And to @DonkeySkin, I don't think looking at statistics is a red herring. I've asked people on here for verified, unbiased statistics of the actual numbers of boys/men deciding to change their whole identity to win at a game, or even statistics of all these men we're worried about faking it so that they can commit these awful crimes, and not one person has actually been able to come up with something. It's just become some sort of weird frenzy where you're all working yourself up about an issue that has no actual, statistical backing in real life. I understand it's fear-based, but no one can seem to provide actual evidence that indicates that the vast majority of people identifying as trans want to do anything other than be allowed to be who they really are.

We don't care why they're identifying as transwomen. It is irrelevant. You're just trying to derail logical discussion october.

Why would I be trying to derail logical discussion? It is relevant why they're identifying as trans woman, because if you block out the rights of all trans woman based on the exceedingly few that have bad intentions, that's an entire population you're denying the rights of, who are just regular people like you or I.

This is Kirsti Miller, another TW Ozzie footballer who has complained and made a stir about being allowed to play. It’s a news report on Kirsti’s stance - worth watching to see what the future of women’s sport might look like.

www.todaytonightadelaide.com.au/stories/trans-footy-dispute

Another thing - remember the East Getman and Russian “women” athletes from the 80’s. Athletes and countries have already shown they will do anything it takes to win medals. Also, there are a lot of poor athletes out there from developing countries - I don’t think it’s beyond readon that some might be tempted.

Again, nobody here wants to take away trans rights.

Which part of that statement do you find so difficult to grasp?

Sportswomen are not weak. They are strong, for women. They are not as strong as men.
Almost all men are stronger than most women.

www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/

i.redd.it/24q7mk1ooecx.png