Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

I thought hysterical was one of those words we weren’t supposed to use because it was misogynistic?

The penis thing is a red herring. It's because it's very difficult to talk about women with a penis. Or a penis being a female organ.

It makes talking about the issue incredibly difficult unless you are very specific.

It's not a concept that reduces people to their genitals. It's a linguistic mechanism to specify what it is exactly you're talking about, because the word men and women are now interchangeable.

It's not a concept that reduces people to their genitals. It's a linguistic mechanism to specify what it is exactly you're talking about, because the word men and women are now interchangeable.

Except you obviously don't believe this, Datun. Anyone on the FWR board uses 'man' to mean 'biological man' and 'woman' to mean 'biological woman'.

If you want to dehumanise men, if that's how you feel, why don't you just own it?

Incidentally, if you go over to the FWR board at the moment, someone's posted a civil and reasoned (though possibly ultimately wrong) post titled 'Can you all just lay off trans people'.

The first two responses read:

I'm not sure you've read these boards properly if that's what you think.

for god's sake, go away and read something, fool

Speak for themselves, really, don't they?

Feminists, is giving someone SLOW feminist jazz hands the same as giving them a slow hand clap? Just wonderin

dancingbear

To be honest i think the

Mic drop

Bit has wound everyone up...when did mic drop become a civil way of debating? Isnt it the 14 year olds equivalent of #nodebate

thedancingbear

You misunderstand. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

Yes, man means biological man and woman means biological woman.

But when you are dealing with transactivists, that doesn't cut the mustard.

Similarly the acronym PERF (penis exclusionary radical feminist) resulted from the word TERF.

TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist.

Not a term propagated by feminists. Propagated by trans-activists.

Feminists do not agree that sex segregation should be on the basis of whether you identify as trans, but on the basis of sex.

Therefore women who identify as transmen are still women. They still need access to women's services, sanitary protection, and, generally, do not clamour to be accepted in male intimate spaces.

Hence TERF doesn't exclude all trans. Only male biological trans.

Which is why the term PERF was used, to make the distinction clear.

It was kind of done as a joke, to be honest. And most women don't use it. It's just to explain.

The thing is, dancingbear

Trans people is also a bit of a red herring.

Many Transpeople and homosexual people are as angry as feminists about the way a number of MRAs are masquerading as TRAs and hijacking the language, the means and the cause.

That's why that poster was told to go and do some reading.

This is not about angry feminists against the marginalised trans population. Far from it.

Francine asks questions but won’t answer them.
I’m still waiting to hear where all those women who think men are penises are. And when the NUS became the official arbiter of what feminism is.
Come on Francine!

I'm not sure you've read these boards properly if that's what you think.

Perhaps you're not aware, but there are several transwomen and one transman posting on those threads.

They get called bigoted and ignored.

I have just done SLOW Feminist Jazz Hands at myself in the mirror.

IT WAS FUCKING SCARY.

Do NOT try this at home kids.

Rather jazz hands than jizz hands.

When everyone’s up in arms in a couple of years cos they’re getting flashed by fake transwomen in the bogs this will all come back and there’ll be howls of ‘why weren’t we told?’ ‘What about my daughter?’ and there’ll be nothing that can be done. Because that fake transwoman has said they are a woman and that’s all anybody will need to do to be a woman. Not a transwoman, a woman.

Can there even be feminists if women aren’t women anymore?

Im not sure it was the jazz hands that were scary francine

?

Francine, when all you have left is feeble goading, time to drop out mate. Truly.

They get called bigoted and ignored.

By women.

Women telling transwomen they're bigoted.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake

Francine asks questions but won’t answer them.
I’m still waiting to hear where all those women who think men are penises are. And when the NUS became the official arbiter of what feminism is.

Up yer arse
Last Wednesday

I win anyway

I deffo called universities and thats gotta include the NUS

The only thing I can't do as a woman is pee standing up

Lucky you. Try being a woman in Iran, or Saudi Arabia or any of the other places where women are treated like shit. There is still lots that needs to change.

God it’s embarrassing my buttocks are actually clenched on your behalf, Francine mate

There is a big difference between telling people with opposing views that they are wrong, and telling people of opposing views that you disagree with them.

Yes it would be good if you learnt this, your lack of doing this is why pople think you're a GF and avoid you.

If feminists now want to start calling themselves PERFs (Penis Exclusionary Radical Feminists) - are they not also, by definition, reducing all men to a single bodily organ?

Or are you plagued by a deluge of disembodied penises in your life?

Francine several people have explained the use of PERF.

Well that just confirms why I avoid any and all "IST" labels. The minute you adopt and someone else (who shares it like the President of the NUS Women's Conference) does or says something you disagree with - you're having to say "Oh no. That WhateverIST isn't my kind of WhateverIST. Her WhateverISM is wrong. My WhaterISM is right,"

thedancingbear

Incidentally, if you go over to the FWR board at the moment, someone's posted a civil and reasoned (though possibly ultimately wrong) post titled 'Can you all just lay off trans people'.

The first two responses read:

I'm not sure you've read these boards properly if that's what you think.

for god's sake, go away and read something, fool

Speak for themselves, really, don't they?

Yes they do. But not in the way you think.

Because the issue with transgenderism has been discussed widely. For a looong time.

I can only say, from the bottom of my heart, for people to actually read the threads about this.

Not skim, not pick out posts that either confirm or refute what they think.

Just read.

And please, please bear in mind this.

Feminists' modus operandi is advocating for minorities.

It's what they do. Because it's often women who suffer most in times of austerity or in terms of discrimination.

The disabled, women of colour, single mothers, rape survivors, those on benefits.

It's quite laughable to imagine that they are targeting an oppressed minority for no reason. Men not being a minority, notwithstanding.

Feminists look at statistics, they look at evidence, studies. They don't rely on anecdotes. Or individuals. It's too easy to make a mistake. Because everyone has a story, right?

Feminists are analysts. Not bigots.

I will talk to anyone, any time about this issue. Because I understand both sides of the equation.

I don't get angry, I don't make personal attacks, I don't criticise.

I have every sympathy for a man with gender dysphoria. Many of them post on the threads. And they have my full support and empathy.

Transactivists don't.

If you are concerned about women's rights, you have to first be able to define the word woman. Not as a concept, or abstract thing or to be inclusive. You actually have to be able to define it in law.

If self identification goes through, it means that the words men and women have no legal definition, other than what the person says.

It's a massive, concerning issue of social engineering.

Please don't be put off by what you imagine has been said.

You might go onto a thread that contains posters who have been through quite a long journey on this issue. And it seems harsh.

There are many threads where people have come on and said I don't know what's going on here, why is this an issue? Please explain.

A version of which, is here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Women's rights are directly under threat. On the other side you have the desire to be inclusive.

Everyone wants both those things. But they conflict.

I’ve thought of myself as a feminist since the early 70s. What I dislike doing is defending, justifying or otherwise having to explain my version of feminism to other people, I don’t see the point if they are incapable of PARD. It’s just an endless, point-scoring squabble.
Prefer to live by my principles, and demonstrate through example at a practical, grassroots level.