Not quite a TAAT (I hope) but a follow on from the Are You a Feminist thread....

[BertrandRussell]

If you said no, could you say why? And if possible, could you give examples- I know a couple of people have said that they think feminism has gone too far, and feminists think all men are rapists that sort of thing. If you think that, could you say why? What have you read, or listened to that brought you to that belief? No “tearing to shreds” I promise!

I believe that greater equality overall would lead to greater equality between sexes. Affordable childcare, better maternity pay/parental pay, better support and provision for carers/single parents etc. These are areas that would benefit both sexes but especially women.

I discussed the choice thing earlier in this thread with another poster. To me, saying ‘it’s the choice that’s important’ is all fine so long as it’s a true choice - not a choice made with a very narrow set of parameters.

So the STEM arguement again, you could so easily say ‘well that’s because fewer women are making that choice’ but as (I think) Relief said - if that choice is made because Engineering is considered a boy’s subject, being a girl on that course will be a fairly isolating experience (compared to say, nursing) and then your working environment will be male-dominated and you’re put off by that, are you really making a fair choice?

Sorry if I’ve said Choice too many times, it’s starting to make my eyes feel weird.

FreudianSlurp

Can you try different example, but with something that might be considered feminist instead of illegal.

I am struggling to see how that fits in with feminism.

The feminist example would be you are starving, there is no such thing as social services, welfare or a food bank. And your only alternative is prostitution. You choose prostitution, but it's not a choice made in a vacuum It can't, therefore, support the assertion that prostitution, in that case, is a feminist choice. Because it was a forced choice.

@Datun I think choice becomes really problematical because some women do have other choices but still choose prostitution.

SS is available in the U.K., food banks, fee education, free health care but some women still make an (apparently) free choice to work as prostitutes.

I am aware of the limitations of SS and welfare in the U.K., but am trying to make a more theoretical point.

OK, using your example. Imagine that someone suggests the food bank and you turn the idea down flat - saying that you could never do that under any circumstances- you don’t know why, you just couldn’t bring yourself to do it.

If the person who suggested it went into it a bit, you might realize that you had been brought up to believe (as many people are) that it was shameful to accept charity. Once you realize this, you can decide whether you want to act according to your earlier conditioning or according to your current circumstances. That makes it a free choice- it wasn’t before.

“the person can go into it a bit in more than one way. They can explain in the way you said, or they can explain it in a way that makes me feel that what they mean is "I know better than you, it's only your ignorance that is preventing you doing what I suggest and you're doing poverty wrong if you don't follow what I say", which puts my back up.”

Well, yes of course. But the point remains, surely?

So, a feminist example based on yours might be that I'm starving, there is no alternative but prostitution. If I'm happy to be a prostitute, that's a choice. If I'm not happy to be a prostitute, that's not a choice it's an alternative and I'd hope that someone would fight for my right to choose

I think so! Although I'm little confused.

Prostitution is a drastic example. But it's nonetheless showing that the choices that women make are not always freely given.

In terms of feminism, the conditions under which that choice is made, is where feminism steps in.

So is the choice freely made, because you have ALL the information available AND it's something you want to do.

That's the 'is any choice a feminist choice' part.

And the second part is does your decision damage other women?

And this is where the two strands of feminism tend to part company.

Liberal feminism will decide that it's an individual thing and the damage to other women is not the responsibility of that individual.

Radical feminism will decide it's a collective responsibility and therefore can be critiqued.

I think. There is a long-running thread on here at the moment with far more academic feminists than I, talking about the difference between liberal and radical.

I just want to add that when I say it's a decision to be critiqued, I don't mean we take a rolled up newspaper to prostitutes and have a go.

Almost any feminist will support prostitutes on an individual level, because of the perceived lack of choice and the patriarchal influence which allows prostitution to flourish.

so choices and the self-determination they bring are paramount now, even if I make the 'wrong' choice.

I totally get that feeling!

Being in charge of your own life and your own destiny is unbelievably liberating.

The fact that your decisions are yours alone, to celebrate or regret, is a very powerful feeling.

But it's a very individual thing. It's down to personalities and experience.

It has little to do with feminism.

Although, I can understand that choosing to reject something, just because you can, is a result that is sometimes greater than the sum of its parts, if you see what I mean.

"Making a point isn't the goal for everyone though"

Fair enough. I seem to be getting your back up so I'll bow out. Just to say I didn't mean to.

My idea of feminism is that they fight to make those choices available, achievable and known, but I part from Feminists when when they seem to take away my right to reject them.

Can you give examples? Sometimes these conversations going into a head space that has no real bearing on what the person means.

@Datun Liberal feminism will decide that it's an individual thing and the damage to other women is not the responsibility of that individual

Classic liberalism will say it's an individual thing and the individual needs to take personal responsibility for the damage it does to other women. The individual is not absolved of responsibility. They can make the choice, I will defend their right to make that choice, but the caveat is that they are then responsible for the choice and it's impact.

It empowers on one hand - here make the choice.
On the other hand it is harsh - you made that choice accept responsibility for it.

It empowers on one hand - here make the choice.
On the other hand it is harsh - you made that choice accept responsibility for it.

Got it.

And I suppose asserting that you do not accept responsibility for your choice, is where the bunfight begins?

Not really Datun

No worries.

I've got to take the dog out now, but thank you all for discussing this with me.

Or when people say " oh you can't blame her she had no choice".

In some societies their really is no choice. In the U.K. today?

We all have choices to make we need to take personal responsibility for them.

That is not to say I think society is fair, it isn't. We need to level the playing field and help people make safe choices but I absolutely defend their right to do (legal) stupid shit. I will also criticise them for their choices.

Does that make sense?

My DD is pregnant with her 2nd son.

Her older son, my grandson, is 8 years old.

He told me, and his mother, that if mummy was having a girl he would run away from home and come and live with me.

He has a doll phobia. He is scared of ALL dolls - including action men/marvel action figures, as well as girly dolls.

Luckily mummy is giving him a baby brother.

Phew.

We found out where the phobia, if that is the right word, (he even avoids them in shops etc), started. At school. He was encouraged/forced to play with dolls when he didn't want to. He was told that dolls are for boys as well as girls. He was told to 'bath' the doll, wash it all over, and dress it in a dress and style it's hair.

He didn't want to

Consequently he was not allowed to play with any of the other toys that day.

When the teacher was questioned, she insisted on equality for both girls and boys....

I told her to start looking at equity.

My GS no longer attends that school and, hopefully next year, he will be attending an all boys school.

Does that make sense?

Indeed it does. I have skated over thin ice, many a time, telling my sons that I thoroughly disagree with their choice, but it's their bed...

sallyandherarmy

That's disgraceful. And bordering on abuse.

It's depressing and frustrating in equal measure that people can get it so wrong.

I don't want to talk for other women but I think some may become disenchanted with feminism when their choices are dismissed by women.

Women X has spent a long time agonising over a decision, she makes the choice. When explaining the decision she is told " it's not really your fault " or " you think you like what you're doing but you don't really" or " you only made the decision because of society".

People want to be able to own their decisions and feel disempowered and disillusioned when they are told the decision wasn't really theirs. This might apply to waxing, pole dancing or marriage.

Sally- that is absolutely awful. But surely you didn't think anyone on this thread would say anything else, did you?

People want to be able to own their decisions and feel disempowered and disillusioned when they are told the decision wasn't really theirs. This might apply to waxing, pole dancing or marriage.

All true.

Which is why the feminist boards are so useful.

One person might get narked about what they think is behind what feminists are saying. When another might decide to drill right down.

They could both come to the same conclusion. But that's human nature.

Or they may not.