To think we should have the right to die

[sirlee66]

If my dog was, God forbid, hit by a car or became terminal and there was no way she would get better, She'd get out down. It would be the kindest thing for her

I recently lost my Grandad. He had dementia and developed some other complications. We weren't close but it was still sad to see someone I once knew as so strong become so very frail. It was incredibly hard on my poor Mum.

Towards the end he was very ill. I wouldn't let my dog suffer in the way he did.

I don't know. I have very mixed emotions about it at the minute. I don't know what to think.

Is it unreasonable to want 'dieing with dignity' to be legal in the UK?

I think people who don't like the status quo should take responsibility for their own deaths and stop trying to pull others into their death plans.

This is an issue I struggle with. I watched my mum die a very slow and painful death, without any hope of improving - she starved to death while vomiting excrement. No one should have to go through that.

Then again I have disabled friends who are extremely concerned about the impact of euthanasia laws on the disabled community and I completely understand those fears.

How do you propose that a person with terminal cancer in a hospice too weak to move could kill themselves? Any idea what it’s like to watch a loved one slowly starve to death, in agony, when there’s no chance of recovery?

I find it a difficult one, mainly because I would worry about family members exploiting it for their own gain. But also, it should not be seen as the easy way out - the most simplest option. It is not.
Someone up thread said it was in their living will that if they had dementia they should be sent to dignitas. This is not how it works, you have to be of sound mind and able to drink the barbiturates yourself. If you’re past that stage, it’s too late. And that’s exactly how it should be.
Dignitas now allow some people with non terminal illnesses to use their services. I just don’t think this is right.

I am firmly opposed to killing people to ease their relatives suffering. I can't see it ever being a lawful option in this country. People have been dying for thousands of years and people have coped and however traumatic the process, most of us can cope.

I have the strongest feeling that with serious illness and death being less common in developed countries like the UK, people are trying to sanitise the process, in part for their own comfort. In many places people are routinely nursed till they die in the home, not outsourced to the medical profession.

Yes I agree. It's always amazed me that it's seen as abhorrent to let a cat or dog suffer on in agony with no hope of recovery (which of course it is) yet if you're a human being, tough titties and you're obliged to hang around until every shred of dignity is gone and you are nothing but pain.

That said, a system of allowing someone to choose their own time would always be open to abuse. How could you be sure that person TRULY wanted to die, and they weren't being coerced in to it somehow? (It would happen - life insurance claims etc.)

I don't know. It's a difficult one.

It has nothing to do with my suffering, and everything to do with hers - I wouldn’t want to suffer in the way she did, with literally no hope of recovery, bowel completely obstructed by cancer and vomiting excrement for an entire month. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to suffer that way either. It’s all well and good when it’s an abstract concept but I do think there are circumstances where its deeply cruel not to end suffering. If you let your per continue like that you’d be branded a monster.

I agree. The problem with dementia is the capacity issue.

I do think that the time will come to look at the question frm a society point of view. We can't yet as it is unthinkable. We get comparisons with Hitler and the like - but if we are keeping lots and lots of people alive for 15 or so years and the resources situation becomes critical then the questions will be asked.

I know the impact on the next generation down too. I am one and I do it but the time, the damage to my career, the effect on my health, the COST!!! are all significant. And my mother may survive another ten years.

A good griend of mine has been caring for his mother for twenty years. He has now been diagnosed with terminal cancer. He is seventy two. His mother is in her nineties. There is very little money left and yet he has not worked since he was fifty. For what?? She is bedbound, incontinent, mostly tube fed, does not know who she is or who he is and is always upset and obsessively worrying about her (long dead) husband. She was admitted to hospital with a severe chest infection over Christmas - they gave her antibiotics, they treated her, she recovered.

I believe that in twenty or so years things will have changed.

I agree with you, op. I think it's disgusting that so many people have to suffer enormously because the idea of helping them to have a quicker, less agonising, less terrifying and more peaceful end makes some others uncomfortable. As you say, we treat our pets better than people in these situations.

people say all the time on here that you wouldn't let a pet suffer like that, that their relative/friend suffered SO much, it was awful to watch, that they were in agony, in pain for months,

and yet the suffering was not bad enough for people to kill them anyway and hang the consequences.

But they want someone else to do it.

So your argument is that I should have committed murder in legal terms, in a hospice surrounded by staff, rather than have a law which permits increased prescribing of opiates to a patient who has no chance of recovery?

Brilliant idea.

But you can't hang the consequences can you. If you murder your elderly parent whatever the reasons, under the law you will be tried and more than likely go to prison.

If you have others for whom you care, (and many have children or grandchildren or partners), then you are leaving them vulnerable.

Prison is not nice - you sacrifice your life for their death.

A court case is public. Not everyone will agree with what you do - the shame and vilification will affect your whole family.

Having said that there are cases - and I am thinking of the old man who shot his wife in her care home - where people do exactly that. And if you only had to think of yourself in terms of consequences I think more would take that step.

I agree. I think even aside from the pain and dignity aspects, we are far too focused on prolonging life whatever the cost. I know a very elderly lady who has been slowly declining for around five years. She is admitted to hospital for one reason or another at least three or four times a year. She stays in for a few days, or a couple of weeks, and is then discharged. And every time it takes her a little bit longer to get better, and "better" isn't quite as good as it was before, and the period before she is next admitted is slightly shorter. She won't accept any outside care, and looking after her is bringing her family to their knees as they all either have young children or are starting to feel their own age. It looks from the outside as though her quality of life is fairly limited- she's in pain, her mobility is restricted, she's lonely a lot of the time- but this could carry on for another five years with increasingly frequent medical intervention and a growing catalogue of tablets. It sounds hideously callous, but it's hard to see it as a good thing.

And right there is the reason why it should never be allowed. That poster is talking about the burden on that lady’s friends and family. So ... the family should be able to have her put down then? Presumably?

As for people saying that nobody is being coerced in countries where assisted suicide is legal how do they know? Those people are dead after all. They’re not going to be able to come back and admit they did it to make their loved ones’ lies easier. I would bet money that a lot of people do commit suicide through a sense of obligation rather than a sense of them wanting to die.

In principle I can see why people want the law to be changed, and I can see why people go off to dignitas, although afaik from this year it will become illegal to do so as the people of Switzerland have voted against foreigners being able to go there to die. But I do think it is likely to be far too open to abuse, and I believe it likely is abused elsewhere but unproven. I also think that it will be the slippery slope between assisted dying and euthanasia of the most vulnerable. Once you have the first law in place the next bit will just become the variation, and people will be more likely to e.g. accept it.

Totally agree OP.

I’m really uncomfortable with the talk of older people and euthanasia because we start a slippery slope into talking about younger people and passing judgement on their quality of life. People have shared stories very moving about their loved ones who’ve suffered at the end of their life with dementia and requiring hospital treatment such as; IV medication and tube feeds. I have compassion as I deal with this both professionally and personally. However, there are younger adults who have very high care needs, both physically and mentally. All the things people have said their older relatives have gone through also happen t some younger people. If we are going to discuss medical professionals being able to end lives, then we cannot avoid talking about younger adults. It can’t be the elephant in room because it makes us uncomfortable.

I am 100% in support of the right to die. I am 100% against making decisions to end the life of an individual who lacks capacity to make this decision for themselves.

Sorry, to add, that I don’t have any issues with older people who have capacity to decide to end their life but only when they’re lacking capacity.

but we do not have the right to make somebody else kill us.
(which is what it comes down to)

No it doesn't. This is not about the right to make someone kill us, it's the right to have someone who is willing, to provide the assistance we might need to end our own lives.

Fancy I’m so sorry you and your Mum had to suffer so terribly. I think people need to show some empathy on this thread to those that have witnessed loved ones having harrowing deaths and stop trying to have a bloody argument.

Fancy bold fail

YANBU

Regarding dignitas and Switzerland. The admissions process is very stringent. You have to have 100% mental health to be accepted. Dementia sufferers are therefore ruled out. You can only make your own decision. No one else can decide that you should be allowed to die. No pre written agreement can be accepted. You have to b able to decide right before you take the meds.

My Swiss fil lived in a care unit with dementia for 8 years. He was almost blind and deaf. Although physically strong fell out of bed and broke his hip and couldn't learn to walk again. He was given anti-bs for a chest infection when in the opinion o the family he should have been left to sleep forever. Devastating for everyone and a miserable last few years of life for a man who spent his life outside with nature.
Why is humanity so obsessed with keeping people alive when they should be allowed to die with dignity?

Chaosneverrains - no one at a place like dignitas would be allowed to end their life out of a sense of obligation.

I think the lives of old people with dementia shouldn't be prolonged. The illness should run it's natural course.

Young people should have the right to make decisions over their lives too.

I am very much for a change in the law on this from personal experience.

If people are interested it's worth looking at this organisation...
www.dignityindying.org.uk

...and, in particular, the writings of Rabbi Jonathan Romain are very interesting. I was fortunate enough to hear him speak on the subject and he changed some people's opinion. His response to questions about how to reconcile that with his religious beliefs was very thought-provoking whether you hold similar beliefs or not.

And right there is the reason why it should never be allowed. That poster is talking about the burden on that lady’s friends and family. So ... the family should be able to have her put down then? Presumably

Chaos - of course you are right but I am in a not dissimilar position. And at what point to do I say - "No, my life matters too!"

It isn't about "putting down" but about not intervening. However that leaves the inevitable consequence of leaving someone to die - often in pain. Legally we can't just let them lie on the floor and not treat them.

I am paying for care but only the bare minimum as that is all I can get my mother to agree to. She will quite often refuse them entry. When she does not answer her phone or she is unwell I always go rushing over. Always - and I call doctors and abandon my teens to another evening of pizza and tv and reschedule or cancel my work and spend the next week at hospitals or sitting with her or dealing with carers and nurses and driving hundreds of miles.

My kids need support, my house needs work, my income has taken a huge hit over the last five years, my own health too. At what point do we stop??

It really

ON the face of it yes, I agree BUT my elderly dog is incontinent, clearly senile and very stiff but she enjoys going out for a pootle around the garden and having a sniff. I thought last week I would be having her PTS but she's bounced back - the decision is incredibly hard to make. I would hate to have to make the same decision for a person