Are you a feminist? Just a yes or no.

[RedHareWithBlondeHair]

No need to go further into your reasoning if you don't want to but this has always a been curious issue to me and came up today with one of my colleagues. She is a feminist by how she described her beliefs but doesn't actually adopt the term.

“Slightly missing the context but this sums up my issue with feminism more than anything“

Make that entirely missing the context......

@lesDeuxAlps that was a specific comment about abortion rights, and the balancing of the needs of the woman over the foetus/baby. Not a comment about feminism at all.

@lesDeuxAlps but not all women are as equal as you. Being a woman has had an impact on my life but due to the fortunes of birth - family, intelligence etc, I have done very well. Like you have I imagine.

However, not all women are as fortunate as I have been. Society still makes it hard for lots of women to be equal. Consider Tesco paying more to people in 'men's' jobs. It's still a fact of life. This being the case we still need feminism and I will work to improve the conditions of all women.

When society achieves equality I will reconsider but I think we are still a very long way off.

In relation to labels I'm not keen on them either but they do help focus attention. I too have issues when within feminism people argue about who is the 'most feminist'. I just don't let them define what I think. You clearly can construct and argument a define your own terms. It would help all women if people like you stood with feminists and argued underneath the umbrella.

YES!

Okay, entirely missing the context but my point is that that quote sums up the way I think many feminists feel and act and is the reason I am not a feminist.

@Moussemoose

That Tesco job is a terrible example. Paying more for a job with more specialist requirements that fewer people can do, in a worse environment where men and women are perfectly welcome to apply. This makes the women wanting to sue look like idiots. If they applied for the warehouse job and were told it was for men only then it would be entirely different. If they'd applied but were unsuccessful but could prove that they were capable then it would be different. But, they didn't.

"ou clearly can construct and argument a define your own terms. It would help all women if people like you stood with feminists and argued underneath the umbrella."

That's some twisted logic. You're saying that I can disagree with the perception of what feminism is, what its vocal proponents proclaim and not like the label but I should pretend I do to help others because I have a fanny and so do they? For a start, I don't want to help all women. Some women are complete dickheads. I do not want to label myself as a feminist because I disagree with so many of them. I'm delighted that you didn't go for the "do you love equality. Ah, so you're a feminist" argument but I don't think a call to solidarity because I have XY chromasomes is that much better.

I don't define myself as a woman. I mean, I am one. A traditional one (if I say CIS some people get really shitty) too but if I was writing a list of things that define me, 'woman' would be a long way down the list. I'd speak about being a parent. A mother to boys. A wife. My career. Sports I play. Books I like.

I know that it will attract trite mimicry and calls of "yes, what about the menz" (not you, you sound pretty smart), but every time you said "woman" it could be replaced by people. I actively support disadvantaged people - I volunteer to teach in a prison.

I put being an egalitarian above feminist. I don't think you can be both as feminism is necessarily from a pro-woman perspective and that phrase I quoted sums up how I see feminism as a movement. I'm not pro-woman. I'm anti-discrimination.

@lesDeuxAlps I thought the point about the Tesco situation was that independent experts could conclude that the jobs in the warehouse were comparable to jobs on the shop floor, and the structural difference in pay was not justified.

Using that quote out of context strikes me as somewhat unreasonable given that no actual feminist here is suggesting that this is what they believe feminism is about.

@lesDeuxAlps I don't think we're that far apart. I'm anti discrimination which is why I'm a feminist because discrimination against women still exists.
Like you ( I assume) I'm anti racist, anti homophobic etc. This being the case feminism is just another way of moving society towards equality.

You said you volunteer in a prison, I assume a men's prison. I work with disadvantaged young men and it can be hard when you see the struggles young men have in society when some people seem to prioritise women's needs. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I can be a feminist and work to support the issues faced by these young men.

Unlike some feminists I think men can be feminists. I define the term the way I want to. Feminism is not defined by your genitalia but rather by your desire for equality and an end to discrimination. Some posters criticise my form of feminism but, you know, fuck 'em. My politics, my terms.

Our opposition to discrimination defines us and brings us closer rather than the term we choose to describe ourselves.

Y E S

I'd say many women, including me, have had a good dose of internalised misogyny. Anything which is pro women or for/done by women is embarrassing or less worthy. Took me a while to get over that, once I recognised it.

I'm probably one of those awful strident feminists now and fucking delighted with it

@Assassinated

"Using that quote out of context strikes me as somewhat unreasonable given that no actual feminist here is suggesting that this is what they believe feminism is about."

I didn't mean to misrepresent the person whom I quoted, hence the bit I said about it being out of context.

I believe that it's what feminism is about and why I am not one and that's why I used the quote.

@Mousse

"This being the case feminism is just another way of moving society towards equality. "

Yes, and I don't like its way.

As I said, I'm not pro woman, I don't want to join a movement because of similar genitals.

I agree that feminists can help men. You clearly do. As long as you aren't blaming it on toxic masculinity then you're doing a great thing. However, feminism is about bolstering women. Focusing on problems women face etc. Yes, it's equality but it's from the view of a woman. What even is that? The last time someone said to me "as a woman surely you agree that..." I told them to fuck away out of my office.

Yes, men can be feminists. I kind of pity them though. I often want to lecture them on how boys / men are failing in education, university and employment after uni.

"Some posters criticise my form of feminism"

If enough did would you ever say 'fuck you, I'm now a xxx - I believe in equality but not your label'?

That's what happened to me.

@lesDeuxAlps Do you think that the feminists here are misrepresenting their beliefs, and do actually want to promote women over men? Or that they're misguided and the results of feminism will be that women are promoted over men?

I believe that it's what feminism is about and why I am not one and that's why I used the quote.

Why do you believe that, though?

"Do you think that the feminists here are misrepresenting their beliefs"

I haven't read all 837 replies.

"do actually want to promote women over men?"

On the whole, as a group, yes!

Two threads which most interested me in the last few months that I watched but didn't 'enthusiastically' reply(as at the least I'd get one of those warning emails) were the one about boys (trans - obvs. what else) in Guides and how this was an invasion. Females need their space. Safe space. Space from males to do female stuff blah blah. The other was (were) Freemasons threads and the fact it was misogynistic to have a club for men only. The hypocrisy astounded me.

To me this is a great example of expecting two sets of rules to promote women over men.

"the results of feminism will be that women are promoted over men?"

They already are in some instances and if that's down to attainment then I applaud it. I don't want quotas. Look at Scandie countries where STEM roles are ignored by women despite being 'feminist models of equality'. I work in STEM. It suits my (mild) Asperger's. I think that drives to get to 50:50 is sacrificing women at the alter of feminism. It's a job which tends to suit male brains - yes I believe in general differences between male and female brains - and which women don't want.

Now that we have equality of opportunity, women will do better in some areas and men in others.

Do we want to force women into STEM careers? Force men onto Tesco tills or simply make sure that there is no discrimination and be happy with the results?

@SmileEachDay

A great example on the swimming in lanes thread. A poster asked about a man overtaking her and if it was fair.

One of the first replies was "He has a tiny dick. Without doubt." followed by "Sharp toe nails and a strong kick are your friend"

This is an example of what I asserted.

These women don't speak for all feminists any more than the actions of some men mean we should group all men together as violent.

I can't think of a single acceptable instance of "bet she's got a massive cunt" followed by "kick her and scratch her with your nails" yet apparently it's fine when the vitriol and advocating violence are anti-men. A real 'women at all costs' attitude.

Yes, yep, yeah, of course I am.

One of the first replies was "He has a tiny dick. Without doubt." followed by "Sharp toe nails and a strong kick are your friend"

That isn’t feminism though - even vaguely. I’m not sure why you think it is?

smile

Its weird isnt it

Sorry les honestly not directed at you

But loads of time on here a 'woman' says something wrong and even if she doesnt say she is a feminist then its apparently a feminist reaction

Apparently only 7% of women say they are feminists...i do not believe they are all on mumsnet

Men in STEM careers , women in Tesco tills - and that’s the natural order of things, except for special women like me with our special male brains.
You just want to think you’re better than other women, so you see what you want to see, and discount any evidence to the contrary.

This poster is and has stated that they are a feminist.

People asked why I am a 'no'. I have provided examples which I believe are quintessential. If men can be grouped and classified because of the actions of a minority then so can feminists, surely?

"That isn’t feminism though"

Says who? You? You get to define feminism?

I think that this exemplifies feminist attitudes and you don't. What possible reason is there for you being right and me being wrong?

I don't want to promote women over men. I think the majority of feminists don't want this either.

You cite Girl Guides and the Freemasons as comparable examples, where the same rules must be applied to both. You can only think this if you don't recognise that there is any discrimination against women/girls, and that no women or girls are ever vulnerable to men. It's also ignoring the fact that the Freemasons exist as a networking club for men to promote each other and protect their interests to the exclusion of women. Girl Guides is not like this. It doesn't seek to promote girls/women over boys/men. It is there to provide an alternative, originally because girls were not allowed to be Scouts. And also to give girls the space that often is denied them in mixed settings.

No one is suggesting forcing men or women to do any jobs. You're suggesting things that no one wants to do, and condemning feminism for these fictional things.

There is legally equality of opportunity. Do you really think that these will miraculously melt away all the barriers to girls/women in society? Racism is illegal but it doesn't stop racists discriminating where they think they can get away with it.

This poster is and has stated that they are a feminist

Yes

Which is why i said that my comment wasn't directed at you

Yes I’m feminist

"I think the majority of feminists don't want this either."

I do. Looks like we have two different opinions.

"You can only think this if you don't recognise that there is any discrimination against women/girls, and that no women or girls are ever vulnerable to men."

Why? Very strange equivalence; I don't for a second see how you got to that conclusion. Would WI vs Masons be a better comparison?

"There is legally equality of opportunity. Do you really think that these will miraculously melt away all the barriers to girls/women in society?"

Yes. Women / girls outperform their boy/men counterparts at school, at university and in jobs leaving university. A great example.

"Racism is illegal but it doesn't stop racists discriminating where they think they can get away with it."

Infanticide is illegal but women will still kill their children. Genocide is illegal but it's happening. Anti-antisemitism is illegal but Corbyn got on stage at Glastonbury.

I have no idea what point you're making!

This poster is and has stated that they are a feminist. oh? Who was it?

Was she staring her feminist view that sharp toenails and a kick are your friend? Or was she being “lighthearted”?

Is it possible she wasn’t really suggesting physical violence? Not my humour cup of tea, though, I grant you.

There’s nothing remotely similar between using your toenails in a swimming pool and feminist theory.

“I have no idea what point you’re making”
You’re not the only one who’s mystified - what the hell was that Corbyn bit about?

Yes