Is it possible to have a proper conversation about work and being a mum?

[HandbagKrabby]

I currently mainly sah after redundancy and I’m setting up a business. I have worked outside the home and been a mum. I don’t care about what people’s personal opinions are about other people and what they do - it’s usually no one’s business. I’d imagine most mums have had or will have a combo of working and staying at home over the time they are a parent so it’s a bit of a silly hill to die on imho.

My point is, can we all help each other as mums without resorting to the arguments about who loves their kids most/who is the best role model/ who’s least fucked if the husband walks out etc etc?

I’ve not sah long and it’s only on mn that I found out if child benefit is in my name I can get full NI contributions. It’s only on mn that I found out how I’m protected in law by being married. Loads of good stuff gets hidden in 100s of judgy posts on all sides and it’s so frustrating!

Society places obligations on mothers that it does not on fathers and also discriminates differently against women whether we have children or are perceived as having the capacity to have children. As a group with loads of mums in it we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience that we can use to help women navigate being a mum, staying at home, working part time, full time, financial planning etc etc.

I love hearing how other mums navigate their lives, how they transitioned through various phases of life, especially when I’m feeling a bit directionless.

What do you think? Or am just I lazy, crap role model for my children because I rely on a man to pay the bills whereas previously I was an uncaring career bitch who dumped my dc with strangers in childcare because I couldn’t be bothered to bring them up myself?

Hey, I just wanted to throw my experience in. I have four children: DS 8, DD 6, DS 3, And DS 1. I am a paediatric junior doctor. You would think that this would be a terrible career for flexible working ....but actually I have found it really positive. I was full time after maternity leave with my elder two, and my DH was a SAHP. This worked well up to a point. I worked fifty hour weeks, but whenever I was off we were all off together so it still felt like I saw them all. However, DH was rubbish with housework and cooking. I was resentful that I was working fifty hours a week and then doing all housework on top of this. So after number three, he went back to work full time and I went part time.

Part time has been amazing. I do sixty percent rota, about 28.5 hours a week. No one has ever suggested that this means that I don't care about my career. The nature of the shift system means it's not obvious you aren't there, because someone always isn't there (nights, weekends etc). If I get all my assessments etc done, I can progress at full time rate on part time hours. Because I have more time off, I can be more flexible about which courses I can attend etc. Part time is just an accepted and supported way of working.

I just wanted to say that I do think it's getting better slowly! I know some male colleagues that have gone part time for childcare reasons and in a doctor-doctor relationship it makes it doable!

Now just have to keep on working on DH and the housework....

Can you explains about the child benefits pls I’m sahm and don’t know about that

nemo that’s great news about your role! Another poster upthread had a flexible nursing role so perhaps clinical nhs roles are starting to adapt.

managed here you go:

www.gov.uk/child-benefit/what-youll-get

I am very lucky Handbag, and jobs like mine are very few and far between. I had actually resigned from my post because of family illness and childcare, and was offered my flexible post as an 11th hour option to stay.

i am now a single mum of 2.

I worked 3 days per week and 2 days at home, after first was born and same after second. Thank god I did.
Ex left 5 years ago and bloody hell it was hard/ still is hard.

I loved my working days as normality and loved my 2 days of school drop offs and pick ups. It was the best of all worlds.

It has made me ten times more efficient when I am at work- i turn up on time, leave on time and work my butt off!

The reality of single mum life, meant I needed to up my in house hours and reduce my at home hours - pick up all school drop offs and pick ups. It is hard and takes months of organisation - it is like a full time job on top of being mum and worker!!

All I can say is you find a way that works for you and your DCS. Nothing is perfect and you do have to compromise. On the plus side, my DCS know I work my butt off for them, resent some of the time, but know we need the monies to survive - have a good life and be a good family. The house is not perfect and sometimes we just do slob in Sunday - ( wear PJs all day) eat lunch in bed and be lazy!!!

i need about another 2 hrs in the day to juggle it all but C'est la vie! I am happy but lonely, go to work for adult company aswell as the monies and just thank god I did not become a SAHM. No issues with those who are.

My ability to remain independent , not have to claim benefits and not rely on EX and his piss poor erratic maintenance, has maintained my dignity and sanity.

I would not have chosen this way and really do not recommend it, but you have to make the best of everything that life throws at you - and this one was a curve ball from hell.

I look forward to the DCS being a little bit older and I can get out and maybe start having a night out, stay for a drink after work etc. I envy those who have a choice and miss my old perfect mix!

The only things that can rile me is when a SAHM says they are a single parent because their partner works long hours and they do everything or a Working Mum with a DP says they do everything just like a single mum. I raise my eyebrows, take a deep breath and walk away.

they have no clue!

I think whatever, it all depends on your family and your situation. What works for one person doesn’t work for everyone. I’ve been a sahm for the last 3 years because we were fortunate enough to be able to cope on DH wages. We were by no means rich but could get by. It made more sense to us to just “get by” so that I could spend more time with my children. But our financial situation has changed now and I have had to go back to work. It’s not ideal but either I go to work or DH works multiple jobs to keep us going just so I can stay at home. I miss the children. It’s been quite hard multitasking working full time and still doing all the cooking and cleaning. But. For us as a family it’s the best option right now. I don’t judge any family on who works and who doesn’t.

That is great Nemo. I actually job share with a male colleague as we both wanted to be part time after having children. I'm in education and loads are part time. Not just for childcare reasons.

I'm really enjoying this thread!

I'm another junior(ish) doctor, training in anaesthetics. I have one DS, who is 16 months old, and I work 60% of full-time, so about 28.5 hrs a week. Mostly the actual job works pretty well, DS is happy in nursery and my DH does the drop-off/pick-ups (the disadvantage of working in anaesthetics is that I start very early so finding a nursery with suitable opening hours is difficult). My specialty is very sessional, so my doing only 3 days a week doesn't really impact on patients like it would in a ward-based specialty if not in a job-share arrangement, there's less concern about continuity of care as most patients are just coming to us for a one-off event. What I find difficult is all the "extras" we're expected to do on top of work - audit, teaching, research etc. These have to be done to pass your annual appraisal and progress with your training, but there is little to no time allocated for them at work. Previously I would be able to do it at the weekend or on off days, but I'm doing childcare at all those times now, so it means late nights which is tough.

The other thing that is bothering me particularly this morning after a shitty night between two 13 hour long day shifts, is sleep. We know that sleep deprivation is dangerous for doctors (and everyone else, but there was a specific piece of research published recently looking at junior doctors). We know that doctors are more likely to make a mistake and/or have a car accident if they are tired, and I'm actively involved in a campaign at work to improve rest facilities for doctors who have long commutes after night shifts. And yet as a mother of young children, it's just kind of expected that we accept our sleep deprivation and get on with things. On the various BF-support forums I'm on, including with other doctors, people actually use the phrase "embrace the tiredness" etc - WTF does that even mean?! I have male colleagues with kids of a similar age who tell me they're glad their wife is BF as they couldn't possibly do any night wakings with work the next day. I'm sitting there propping my eyes open and cursing them, while feeling huge guilt for even contemplating sleep training/night weaning DS. I think it's quite a feminist issue, but I haven't a clue how to handle it!

Hey sockqueen,

I am just finishing a night shift! So sleep is a massive issue. I stopped breast feeding my little one (15 months) before going back to work, as I knew it would be too much. I don't know how you feed at night in between long days, must be exhausting. My DH does any night wakes (unless illness is involved) as he works nine to five. However, DS only wakes once at night occasionally so it isn't too much of a burden. I felt really guilty doing it, especially as he wouldn't take a bottle for ages but when he was bf overnight, he was waking up to six times!

The extra stuff is also a killer, especially if progressing at full time rate. I often book a days annual leave when children all in childcare and physically come in to work to do audits etc, it's the only way to get stuff done! Good luck with your long day!

What I've found since returning to work is that dh and I have been doing housework, shopping etc in the evenings when the dcs are in bed. As a teacher I'm now having to plan lessons and mark books in the evenings which leaves more house stuff for DH or it just doesn't get done.
Yesterday we decided to try and do some jobs but it was impossible with 3 kids under 4.
As a result we live in a tip and are permanently exhausted. We have no money either as we spend the equivalent of my entire salary on childcare. It's tough I'm just hoping it will get better in a couple of years and I will still have my career although I am starting to wonder why I'm putting myself through all this work and stress when we don't even benefit financially (apart from pension etc).

Thank you handbag for this thread. It sometimes feels that women are expected to adhere to some mystical "ideal" but no-one really knows what it is so you are judged on all sides anyway! When in actuality everyone is different and I think there are many "ideal" ways to bring up children.

I started a midwifery course when the kids were 3.5 and 2, which is full-time (I am either in uni which is Mon-Fri 9.30-3.30 and I study round this, or following my mentor's shifts in hospital which is generally 12.5-hour shifts, three a week, any combo of days/nights including weekends). My lovely mum retired and for the first year she had the kids 2 days a week and they were in nursery for 3. She offered to have them 3 days but I felt this wouldn't work for us - she cared for them in her home and they were away from me and 3 days was too many. My husband works 9-5 Mon-Fri so can cover evenings and weekends and generally does pick-up and drop-off.

I felt such horrendous guilt about living apart from them Sunday night - Tuesday evening. But due to distances etc it was the only way to make things work. Some weeks if my shifts fell that way I wouldn't see them awake all week. But the upshot is they have a great relationship with my parents.

Now eldest is in school and we have an amazing after-school programme where you can pick and choose your days (you pay a little more per session than if you block-booked which is fair enough). So I can arrange his childcare round my shifts. Other women on my course have au pairs, very flexible childminders or use family support.

I generally think our set-up works for us all - although I do occasionally have an emotional breakdown after too many night shifts! I feel I work hard, and expect to be tired and emotional sometimes, but genuinely feel that what I do is very rewarding.

Despite choosing myself to WOH full-time, I fully support parents who stay at home. They do a very valuable job.

lougle sometimes it takes you to be on the doorstep for an employer to really see your value - good for you

life my friend is a full time working single mum and my hat goes off to her, I think she’s amazing! I think it’s criminal that it’s possible to walk away from your dc and not finance their upbringing.

disney I think it’s highly unlikely these days that anyone is a full time employee, sahp or whatever for their full adult life - we all chop and change depending on circumstances and what we want to do. Judgement just gets in the way of support ime.

sock sleep is indeed a feminist issue! I’ve had health issues so even though I sah dh has had to be the night watchman for the last couple of months so I can rest and get better. I’m not bf now and the dc occasionally sleep through so it’s not the same as it was but ime it takes months/years to recover from those sleepless nights. Lack of sleep and rest time is the thing that gets me most as a parent.

Nemo I went back to work earlier than you, he was only 9 months old and not ready to stop BF. Plus at the time he was a decent sleeper and only woke up once at night. It all went downhill from there! I don't know if it was reverse cycling, sleep regression, development leap or what but at one point he was back to waking every 2 hours and it nearly broke me. I bought several books but got such a huge guilt-trip from them (they were of the gentler kind and mostly advocated bed-sharing and sucking up the sleep deprivation) that I haven't really implemented anything properly. He did improve spontaneously over the last few weeks, was back to one wake-up, but for whatever reason the sleep demons hit him again last night, multiple wake-ups, screaming at me, trying to climb out of the cot etc. I think maybe he's angry at me for being away at work this weekend, as he settled better for DH, but I'm just glad I've got tomorrow off!

snuggly I taught pt with one dc and I was often on my knees so my hat goes off to you Ime the trouble with teaching is it’s so full on but you get used to that because you work towards the holidays where you can have a break from the pace but then when you have dc you can lose that. Mine had childcare in the hols and I sent them in without a backward glance so I could get stuff done and have a break with some proper days off from everyone.

The jobs are always going to be there - I’m of the opinion that as long as there’s no health hazards, the house is fine! I’d also highly recommend a roomba and a hand held dyson for especially dirty bits and the stairs.

curly that’s amazing that you trained to be a midwife with little dc - good for you Your school childcare sounds amazing too - ours say they’re flexible for parents that work shifts - it should absolutely be the norm and government funded/ subsidised imho.

Handbag glad it's not just me that feels that way! Unfortunately, DH is the one with the health issues in our family, so he really doesn't do well with lack of sleep even though his job is more normal hours and very flexible. So a lot of the domestic work and mental load falls on me, as well as the night wakings and we're constantly trying to find ways of making it more equitable.

After the Bawa-Garba case I'm terrified of what the GMC would do to me if I made a mistake because of sleep deprivation. And yet if I refused to work because of it, I doubt they'd be happy either...

I would consider myself a sahm, but have had a few little businesses along the way, worked as a clerk to the governors for a short time, and now work approx 15 hrs/week as a support worker. All these positions have worked around family life so I have been home during the day with my young dc and do school runs etc.

I'm now gearing myself up to retrain with the aim of going back into work full time when my youngest is in school. I've enjoyed my time as a sahm, and to be honest I am worried about all the extra juggling I'll have to do with work and childcare, but I'm sure we'll all cope. I have over 30 years before I reach retirement age, so I'd like to spend that time working in a career that I enjoy.

I must admit I have felt invisible from time to time, as a sahm, but it was a choice I made with dh willingly, and it worked well for us. But I'm now looking into the future and realising that dc won't be little for much longer and I need to prepare for retirement (which seems a lot closer on the wrong side of 30 all of a sudden...)

I’m a sahm following redundancy which enabled me financially to stay home but I have 3 volunteering roles plus studying a Masters part time So quite busy but want to make I can move into a different direction when I go back into the workforce.

sock

Yes. It is a feminist issue. And your male colleagues attitude sums it up. I often wonder how much of the often crazy pressure to bf is because it keeps women tied to the home and too tired to do anything. And absolves men of doing their share. And of course all those women are jobs on top as well. It’s an echo of the ‘man comes in and puts his feet up because he’s tired’ while the woman, who has been at work all day, gets on with the evening shift. And then is up all night. And hen goes to work the next day. My dh luckily isn’t one of these men but I see it a LOT.

I bfd my first for 18m, and he woke hourly all that time. It nearly killed me. I’m pregnant again and this one is being mix fed because I cannot do that again. Mentally or physically.

Only once we weaned at 18m did he sleep - huge difference to everyone’s quality of life.

Sometimes I sit down and wonder how I do what I do - I have a completely new found respect for single working mothers.

sock hope you’ve managed to get some rest

athing it’s interesting that you say you feel a bit invisible as a sahm - that’s how I feel! Like I’m see through, and kind of wafting around in the background whilst all the people in Technicolor are getting on with their lives.

managed I’ve just finished a masters too and I’m very glad I’ve done it - best of luck with yours!

backenette I mix fed both of mine and it was absolutely fine. They’ve had a bit of bad press but we’ve used the Tommie tippee perfect prep machine and it was fantastic, no problems with it at all and so much easier that using the kettle and cheaper than using ready made formula. Congratulations on your pregnancy

life I think sometimes we’re so busy doing and worrying about what we feel we should be doing, we don’t sit back and see what we have done and give ourselves credit for it.

I think breastfeeding is a feminist issue, but I do think if mothers were able to spend the first year at home, it would make breastfeeding a lot easier. I don't live in UK, and where I am, I haven't seen women being able to leave work for a year and still have a job to come back to. Part time jobs do exist but well-paid and respected ones are as rare as hen's teeth.

We sleep trained, since it was a choice between us being coherent and able to fully function (sleep training) or being so tired that it was dangerous both physically and for the stability of our marriage/family (we both get short-tempered) :) Having gone through it a few times, the hardest part was when they got ill and sleep was disrupted, since we had to go through it all again after they got better.

I've thought a couple of times that perhaps it would be easier to be a single mother, since there wouldn't be parenting style conflicts, but no...single mothers are playing a whole different game. I don't know how they do it, and knowing a few single mothers, they don't seem to know either...or maybe there isn't time to stop and think!

I resigned whilst pregnant with DD and with toddler DS because my headteacher wanted me to go back to full-time (which is what I was contracted to do) instead of part time, and full time nursery for two children would have been £2,000 a month. My full time salary would have been £1,800. So essentially we would have had to find £200 every month for the privilege of me working!

It made financial sense for me to leave work as DH earns nearly 3 times what I earned, but I worry about getting back into work in 2/3 years time. This has been a useful thread to read, without the usual judgement and snippy comments.

You only graduate to sah leech when your youngest starts school.
I am a sahl with a very small part time job.
In real life I haven't come across any judgement to my face.
Personally my motto is whatever works for you.