Is it possible to have a proper conversation about work and being a mum?

[HandbagKrabby]

I currently mainly sah after redundancy and I’m setting up a business. I have worked outside the home and been a mum. I don’t care about what people’s personal opinions are about other people and what they do - it’s usually no one’s business. I’d imagine most mums have had or will have a combo of working and staying at home over the time they are a parent so it’s a bit of a silly hill to die on imho.

My point is, can we all help each other as mums without resorting to the arguments about who loves their kids most/who is the best role model/ who’s least fucked if the husband walks out etc etc?

I’ve not sah long and it’s only on mn that I found out if child benefit is in my name I can get full NI contributions. It’s only on mn that I found out how I’m protected in law by being married. Loads of good stuff gets hidden in 100s of judgy posts on all sides and it’s so frustrating!

Society places obligations on mothers that it does not on fathers and also discriminates differently against women whether we have children or are perceived as having the capacity to have children. As a group with loads of mums in it we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience that we can use to help women navigate being a mum, staying at home, working part time, full time, financial planning etc etc.

I love hearing how other mums navigate their lives, how they transitioned through various phases of life, especially when I’m feeling a bit directionless.

What do you think? Or am just I lazy, crap role model for my children because I rely on a man to pay the bills whereas previously I was an uncaring career bitch who dumped my dc with strangers in childcare because I couldn’t be bothered to bring them up myself?

I had to give up ft work as there were few options after ds1 started school in 97. He was at a nursery up to then. It’s good that’s there is wrap around care these days but it’s only when school is open so still a problem for some during the hols. Most people I knew in the 90s used family for care and got on really well in their careers. If you didn’t have family it was never that easy esp when kids started school. Seems not much had changed despite more schools doing things before n after school hours. It’s hard going - I don’t envy anyone trying to navigate it all. I wish I hadn’t given up work but you do what you can at the time. Having children is a blessing but hard going too at times.

This is a really interesting thread, thank you for it. I'm a SAHP, my daughter is 2 and I went back to work when she was 1, part time, in a job that on paper was excellent (small company that was willing to be flexible, close to home, three days a week... although there was some travel involved that would have been difficult). But shortly after returning DD was diagnosed as profoundly deaf. I carried on for about three months, but just became sick with stress and decided to leave. It was absolutely the right decision, not just in terms of supporting DD, but practically as well. In the 8 months after I left she had numerous appointments ever week, 2 surgeries and 4 emergency hospital admissions... we're coming out of the other end of the medical stuff now (I hope!) but she needs a lot of help... learning BSL, speech therapy (she has cochlear implants), sensory support, etc etc.

I don't know if or when I'll go back to work. The investment I'm making in my DD now will hopefully pay off in the future and make her life easier. But she'll always need help and support, and I want to be the one to provide it.

I have a PhD, and I'm afraid to say that I feel ashamed sometimes that now I'm a SAHM. I actually love being a SAHP, and I'd never judge a SAHP, but I do wonder what my friends think of me now, seeing me slogging my guts out in academia and rising up, to now being at home. I do realise that sounds awful and I hope I haven't offended anyone, that wasn't my intention, it's just how I've been feeling. I also worry about the example I'll be setting to DD.

I'm so fortunate. DH is a high earner, he sees his wage as ours and we share everything. I've protected myself as much as I can, with pension contributions, savings in my name, married, name on mortgage etc. A lot of my friends with deaf or disabled kids can't stay at home with them, so I know I'm lucky. I get carer's allowance, so my NI contributions are covered.

I'm doing a BSL course, and I hope to be able to use that one day, maybe as a communication support worker, or even interpreter, if I get that far! I do need something else. I just don't know what yet. I'm pregnant again and it's possible other children could also be deaf, so may be starting all over again soon!

Thanks backenette.

*The wider questions of WHY work is set up to benefit mainly facilitated men are excellent and worth exploring.

To me, the wohm/sahm spats are a convenient distraction from those issues - keep us fighting amongst ourselves so we don’t notice the real structural injustices in our societies.*

Totally agree with this. My experience was that as a mother, my work place made assumptions about me that they did not make about fathers, that impacted on my career prospects. Added to this, in a well paid professional job I found things got much harder for me once DH went back to work (after a period as the SAHP) and I couldn't always stay late/go away etc at the drop of a hat (the expectation seemed to be that anyone who was serious about their career would either be a facilitated man or be able to act like one.

It really angers me that there seems to be no willingness in many industries to even consider a slightly different work model that would be easier for parents (of any gender). There is just an acceptance that ambitious people will be willing to sacrifice everything else for their career which of course is easier to do if you have someone at home taking care of everything else. I also witnessed many discussions about women who worked reduced hours and were commonly regarded as not really serious/pulling their weight despite the fact that all of them put in far more hours than they were paid for. I'd love my children to go in to a world of work where it was accepted that men and women can be ambitious but also have commitments to family etc

Working mother here...here's some things that I'm doing to navigate through life. Hope this doesn't sound smug...I'm barely holding it together much of the time but these are things that help! Love this thread and will be coming back to look at everyone else's tips too!

1. Fully partnering with my husband. Every couple is different, but we manage this by splitting responsibilities and then helping each other out as needed e.g. he does bins, I do laundry, I do bedtime routine while he gets an early night, he does early mornings so I get a lay in, etc.
2. We don't have extended family nearby, but also pull them in if needed (and if they can and want to) e.g. to help us out just after the children were born.
3. Backup childcare options. We use 2 agencies and have several nannies who we have used in the past who we can call on. One of the backup care agencies is a workplace perk...if anyone is in HR, I recommend offering this to your employees!
4. We are lucky to have great neighbours including some stay at home parents, who are also able to step in, in an emergency.
5. Au pair. This has been life changing but was only economically rational after our second child. We have had a string of very lovely girls from Eastern Europe who have been very helpful and eased our load, especially in the early years. They don't do household management work (organization, cleaning etc) but do anything directly related to the children. This includes children's laundry, cooking, getting the children changed in the morning and taking them to activities and playdates, changing their beds, etc. It also means the children get to spend a lot of time together, so they're well bonded, and they get lots of books read to them! (the au pair also wants to improve her English, so win-win. (caveat: not all au pairs are great, you have to really vet potential candidates).
6. Leaning In when I can at work, but also Sitting Up when I need to! During pregnancy, for each pregnancy I was unable to think clearly or recall facts. This impacted my ability to perform at work. Each time, I asked my manager to transition my role to a new person fairly early (2nd trimester for me is when my brain really packed in!) and I started looking for a new role while pregnant (informal networking); each time after taking the maximum amount of maternity leave available, I started back in a new role albeit at the same company. It was a risky strategy but I think by being honest I kept my reputation and also my salary and level intact.
7. The first couple of weeks back from maternity leave are the hardest. Delay any decision to leave work until after the first month.
8. We found that our relationship really suffered from a lack of time and attention. What's helped is to go on a "forced" :) monthly date night and to have sex at least once a week. Sounds boring but it really helped us.
9. We both make time to volunteer at school. I told the teachers that I can do things outside the school day, so typically will prepare the materials for the classroom e.g. stapling together paper to make "books" for the children to draw in. It's our craft activity at home :) Also doing readings in the morning assemblies with the children, who really love that. It's been much harder to do anything much more, like field trips...will check back on this thread to see how others handle this!

10. 99% of the time I wear machine-washable dresses to work. Wardrobe has about 10 dresses for each season, a handful of jackets/twinsets, and a few pairs of heels. It makes it really easy to look coordinated and smart. While the children are young, I also keep a spare outfit in the boot of the car for if (when) the children give particularly sticky hugs in the morning :)

PS I'm profoundly grateful for the SAHMs of my childrens' friends. A lot of them volunteer at school, and if it wasn't for their willingness to step in, there would be no field trips and school would be less fun for the kids. So THANK YOU from this working mother!

Also...I think society MASSIVELY undervalues SAHMs and SAHDs. It's bloody hard work in a very different way to working in a job. I take my hat off to you.

Working Part time OR Full time is easier than sahm x

Nordic just jumping in to say my mate has just started training to be a PA for exactly the reasons you suggest.

He was quite high up in medical imaging but that came with on call responsibilities. His wife is a hospital based doctor, so he's aiming to be the SAH/wraparound organiser as her shifts are crazy when they hopefully start their family.

Quite a few of his fellow trainees are single parents or primary carers who are coming out of nursing or similar to PA so they can have some kind of life with their kids.

Apart from them all feeling like their heads would explode for the first three weeks with the intensity of it, it's a really good course with the holy grail of a damn job at the end.

I accepted a long time ago that you can't win this one! I have done both- been a sahp for a couple of heads with DC2, worked part time, and next September I will work full time with two DC. I have received judgement for every one of these scenarios so I stopped caring !

backenette I think that is the crux - arguing about who’s the best/least worst type of mother distracts everyone from what the men are doing and why the world of work is so divisive. Logically there is no benefit to society on the whole to keep a significant proportion of the workforce artificially back because they may or may not have dc.

the80s I think in general it’s just assumed everyone had/has access to loads of childcare and it’s not the case for all. It must be so frustrating to not be able to work in your chosen role because there’s no wraparound and no childminders with space.

spaghetti I’m glad your dd is doing well. The bsl is such a valuable skill and you could help so many people with it. I don’t have a PhD but I know how much effort they are - a good thing I think about qualifications for women with dc is no one can take them off you, even if you’ve had a break from the workplace. I suppose it’s a bad thing though when I consider it that as a woman I feel I need external validation of my skill/knowledge to ‘prove’ I have it. That’s no reflection on anyone else btw.

beingme It feels these days the businesses appear to be wedded to the idea that everyone from the lowest paid to the ceo stays at work (unpaid) to get the job done. Now I was a teacher so I’m fully versed in working insane hours to external deadlines and impossible success criteria but when I hear this from non-time critical industries and it’s regarding low paid non-professional positions I just think, fuck off. Stop making money from convincing people that doing 1 and 1/2 the work they’re paid to do means it’s important or necessary or they’re better than people who simply do the work they’re paid to do. You get more out of people if they’re not knackered or worried sick they’re going to be late for their dc or feeling bad at work they can’t do a 12 hour day. Creative, problem solving work needs ingenuity and new thinking, the kind that makes a difference to business and society, you can’t just grind out.

cuckoo thanks for your tips I’m interested in the idea of an au pair if we need another pair of hands in the future but it’s very out of my realm of experience so it’s good to hear how it works for you.

tom the judgement! I don’t understand why anyone gives a shit what someone else does if it impacts not at all on their lives. I have friends with dc who do loads of different combinations of working and childcare and all anyone is doing is trying to do their best for their families. Someone was really unkind to me about my business venture and it really stung because I’m doing what I can around my dc and myself - I’m not prepared to work myself into the ground. When did that become so negative that it deserves comment?

I'm a SAHM and feel I can't win if I return to work, even PT as I will have the wife work plus childcare plus a boss to please, but if I don't work I will be seen as lazy and relying on my husband for £.

I don't think there is an answer - I don't feel I have he skills to set up my own business and even if I did I understand it's really hard to establish and make £ whilst throwing everything you have at it to make it successful.

Honestly? I think I'm screwed either way.

OP - I totally agree

Place marking...

at the interview I start on Monday I was asked if I was planning to start a family anytime in the future (I just got married), I lied and said no because I knew I wouldn't get the job. We plan to start trying in about 6 -9 months...I hate having to lie just because I am a woman at a certain stage in my life.

Holy there is loads of help in setting up a business - lots is free. My business hasn’t cost me very much so it doesn’t matter how successful or not it is but I’m learning so many skills that are helping me decide what I’d like to do in the future. You can set up a business these days with a fb page and an idea. If it’s what you want to do, go for it!

I look at Carillion - massive company, huge contracts, large turnover - still went down with a bang and potentially ruined many people’s lives through them losing their jobs and pensions. If my business doesn’t make a profit, so what? I’m in good company and at least it’s not hurting anyone

I compressed my hours to four days, dropped three hours a week and work 9-4 in a senior management role. I don't get a lunch break and commute an hour each way. But it does mean that DH and I, with no family nearby, can do the pick ups and drop offs between us which helps massively.

Where I'm struggling is that I really like my job and have clawed my way into a great position. I have a very supportive manager who understands that I need to leave in the middle of the day sometimes when DS is ill, but I work for a charity and therefore am earning a good 15-20% less than I could elsewhere. But if I leave, will I ever have the same freedom and flexibility elsewhere? So whilst I do love my job and the fact that it pays ok, I do feel slightly trapped there.

splat they’re not allowed to ask you that at interview. Are you sure you want to work somewhere like that because if you get pregnant they can still terminate contracts etc. You do get some protection when pregnant/on mat leave but it doesn’t stop places going for it anyway and perfectly legally too. I don’t want to be a downer but I feel somewhere that would ask that in interview in 2018 isn’t somewhere that cares about maternity rights.

My experience of being a WOHM spans quite a long time as my children are now adults.

IME the early days of getting out to work, navigating the early drop off at childminder/ nursery and getting your mindset back into work mode while simultaneously running a home and being a parent are really tough! More so with my first, because ML was very short back then so I returned to work when dd was 12 weeks and i was still bf. That seems hard to believe now, because parental leave is so much More generous. On the other hand, it was what it was, so we all got on with it and maybe in some ways it reduced the angst and the issues around separation... every mum I knew who returned to work just did it while the baby was still very small. Being totally honest, if someone had waved a magic wand and said our mortgage and bills were all paid by magic, then I’d probably have not returned to work back then as it would definitely have been the easier option!

However I do think once you get in the routine of it, you see the benefits, and I’m really glad I continued to work, taking a bit longer off with my next two dc but never completely stepping out of the workplace. It’s hard work but IMO if you manage things well then it’s a basis for a good life balance with your partner.

I think a key thing is deciding early on what kind of partnership you want. Do you want a hands on Dad who sees his parenting role as equal, and who is prepared to do all the mundane but necessary home stuff and who will take your work life as seriously as his own? It’s about being honest with yourself, because some women dont want that and prefer to have more control over home and childcare and wouldn’t want to hand over that responsibility to their partner.

I also think good advice is to stay away from the tedious WOHM/SAHM claptrap that appears on here regularly because of course it’s generated by people who have a personal axe to grind and are perhaps not as happy with their own situation as they’d like to be (because when you’re happy with it you just get on with it!)

One thing I will say (with the benefit of being an old gimmer with adult children!) is that as they grow up you fully realise that all the angst is unecessary because whether you work or not is not the crucial factor in how your children grow up. Loving and caring for your children, imparting good values, ensuring they experience nurturing environments at each stage, building strong relationship with both mum and Dad... these are the important things. I am happy to have adult children who have done well educationally and have good jobs and relationships. Ive no doubt they would be the same if I’d been a SAHM too- and that’s really important. If you invest so much of parenting in whether or not you work too, you’re probably going to be disappointed if you expect some incredible outcome based purely on that.

duck I stayed in a job I didn’t want for 5 years because I was part time, term time and only one other pt job at a similar level came up in that time. The lack of flexible working is ridiculous, especially with the wealth of technology we have now and the impact on the environment and everyone’s stress levels of rush hour. Apparently millennials like flexibility so the work place is looking to be more adaptable to suit them - millions of parents (millennial or otherwise) obviously didn’t need flexibility like a 25 year old with a clean eating instagram side hustle

babbity the value of being able to see the long view! To know your dc are happy adults must be so satisfying and life affirming.

I wanted to talk to other mums about work without it descending into the usual arguing about who is best/worst as I find it fascinating hearing about other people’s situations and I’m glad I’ve been able to do that.

HandbagKrabby I'm not in the UK...somewhere else in Europe. So I'm not sure if the same rules apply...

I've done everything from SAHM to 30 hrs per week. I'm a nurse. I have 3 children.

Now I've got the holy grail of nursing jobs, in that it is totally flexible - as long as I get the work done, I can do it at any time of the night or day, and any day of the week. I do 12 hours per week at the moment. I use breakfast club for 2 of the girls, so that I can do it entirely in the school day.

HandbagKrabby

babbity the value of being able to see the long view! To know your dc are happy adults must be so satisfying and life affirming

Yes, it is, and thank you for starting this thread as it’s been great! I think my point is: whether a parent works or not is actually not make or break in terms of the children’s happiness, well being and success - provided of course you select good quality care for the times that you or your partner aren’t providing it. There are so many other factors which contribute to how children develop into adults, and I think the WOHM/SAHM thread often detract from this by making out that you have to get something critically ‘right’ otherwise your children will grow up unhappy. There are many ways of getting things ‘right.’ Honestly if you looked at my adult children and their peers you would have no way of knowing whether their parents worked or not when they were small.

splat I see. Best of luck in your new job

lougle your job sounds like it really fits well into your life - those jobs are out there!

babbity it’s a long long game isn’t it? My dc are small but they had their own personalities in the womb. I’d like to think we provide them with everything they need and lots of what they want and they seem happy enough. I find it hard to be content so if there is something I could give my dc it would be the ability to just be still and happy - maybe they’ll get that from dh