Is it possible to have a proper conversation about work and being a mum?

[HandbagKrabby]

I currently mainly sah after redundancy and I’m setting up a business. I have worked outside the home and been a mum. I don’t care about what people’s personal opinions are about other people and what they do - it’s usually no one’s business. I’d imagine most mums have had or will have a combo of working and staying at home over the time they are a parent so it’s a bit of a silly hill to die on imho.

My point is, can we all help each other as mums without resorting to the arguments about who loves their kids most/who is the best role model/ who’s least fucked if the husband walks out etc etc?

I’ve not sah long and it’s only on mn that I found out if child benefit is in my name I can get full NI contributions. It’s only on mn that I found out how I’m protected in law by being married. Loads of good stuff gets hidden in 100s of judgy posts on all sides and it’s so frustrating!

Society places obligations on mothers that it does not on fathers and also discriminates differently against women whether we have children or are perceived as having the capacity to have children. As a group with loads of mums in it we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience that we can use to help women navigate being a mum, staying at home, working part time, full time, financial planning etc etc.

I love hearing how other mums navigate their lives, how they transitioned through various phases of life, especially when I’m feeling a bit directionless.

What do you think? Or am just I lazy, crap role model for my children because I rely on a man to pay the bills whereas previously I was an uncaring career bitch who dumped my dc with strangers in childcare because I couldn’t be bothered to bring them up myself?

beingme exactly. Arguing about who’s the the least worst mum whilst Dad does as he pleases and everyone thinks he’s bloody marvellous. Mums are bloody marvellous too!

palava I don’t do anything. Just claiming the cb does my ni contribution- you can do it and not claim but I don’t know how to do this and I don’t know if you can if someone else claims the cb for the dc already:

www.gov.uk/child-benefit/what-youll-get

Hi everyone - if this is useful this is how I'm muddling through at the moment...

have two DCs (7&5) and went back to work after mat leave both times to a 4 day a week, fairly stressful office based role. Realised I didn't want to work in that sector for next 30 years so started thinking about what else I could do and then began retraining (broadly one weekend a month with homework in between). Slowly started to build my own business in this new area. I'm not gonna lie, the last 3 years have been full on, and impossible to do without a very supportive partner. But 6 months ago I took the plunge, left the office job, and now work at home on my new business. It's still v part time (about 16 hours a week, but trying to build) and I've taken a massive pay cut (again, planning on that improving) but I'm able to drop off/ pick up the kids from school 8 times out of 10 a week, and am still contributing financially which, for me, is important.

What I've learnt is that those early years, when your entire salary is going on childcare, are hard work financially but actually if you can grit your teeth and get through it life does open up more options for working in a flexible way once they're at school. There's no way I could do what I'm doing now if I had a toddler in the house, but there's also no way I could afford the childcare of someone else looking after that toddler while I'm not earning very much. So for me, going back to work for a few years while I thought about my (and my family's) future was really important.

AmiU, regarding the lack of support network - you get creative! We have no family support at all but we've made it work ok so far. I started working very part time (one weekend day a week) when LO was about 1. Gradually I was able to pick up extra shifts on the other weekend day. Then he started a little bit of nursery (two mornings a week!), so I would do a bit of cover if needed then, sometimes just going in for two hours or so. I'd work extra days when DH had holiday booked too. I hung in there and eventually a role came up within the business I work for that's properly flexible and work from home. So I currently do that plus some weekend hours actually at my place of work (plus going in for the odd hour and an half if they're stuck, as LO now goes to nursery five mornings a week). It's slightly ridiculous, but I've been incredibly lucky to get the second role and I'm starting to see an end in sight when LO starts school in September. Hopefully I can condense all the fragments into a few days a week and we'll actually have weekends together as a family 🙂

YANBU, it absolutely is possible to have that conversation on MN. But if that’s the conversation you want, don’t post in AIBU! You can get the advice and help you need from the talk areas dedicated to the issues you want to discuss.

How am I more protected if I'm married? My OH has a lot of debt. What would be best for me and our children.

holly we all do the best with what we’ve got I think - best of luck in your new career!

checking thanks for explaining how you’ve put together your role over gradually over time. I think it sometimes feels it’s all or nothing and it’s great to hear stories about doing things a different way.

happy I get what you’re saying but the forums are split into sahm/whom/freelance/start-up/self employed and then there’s different types of childcare sub forums and this could be all of those and none of those.

louise it would depend if your partner has more debt than assets then it may be foolish to agree to take on the debt through marriage. I mentioned it more for things like if you live in a home and only your partner is on the deeds and the mortgage is paid from their account you have no claim on the house in the event of separation, even if you have contributed equally or more to the household. The partner would still need to provide for dc in a split. You’re not necessarily the next of kin in the event of a death of a partner if you’re not married I believe too. I would look for legal or financial advice from someone who has a wider understanding to help with your situation - I’m no expert.

Checking - thank you for that! It's really helpful to see someone else's strategy mapped out. I got quite lucky, I started volunteering in the same line as I used to work (incredibly long hours) in before I had DC. After a while, one of the Trustees of the charity started giving me paid freelance work for their other business. I've now built up to 3 clients but it's just little drips of work during naps. I'd love to find a way back to actual salaried work

HandbagKrabby
I’d like to see posters who work in recruitment or have their own businesses look a bit more at the bigger picture if someone applies who’s had a sah period on their cv.

This would happen ideally but to be honest, when I last recruited it was for a fast pace company who needed anyone joining to be up to speed with all or most aspects of the job. In those circumstances those who had current experience were obviously given priority. Do you think that was/is unreasonable?

Tarraleaha
The one thing that makes me put the CV in the bin is the fluff about it "being a SAHM means I am a team leader/ amazing at time keeping/ organisational management/ managing difficult people/ thinking on my feet/ money management, adapting" and the usual nonsense.

Oh god yes, totally agree - cringemaking. Top tip from Tarra to SAHMs, please don't put this crap in your CVs.

I couldn't have children so please feel free to ignore what follows.

Having been on MN for many years, the vast majority of threads started by women who have or are about to split with their DH/DP bemoan the fact that they have no money and their once loving OHs are screwing therm financially which has come as a complete shock. These women gave up their careers to be SAHMs. Years have gone by and their OH has buggered off with the OW, cleaning out the joint account en route. They then realise they must work to survive, whilst also being single parents. Their previous skills are obsolete/out of date and they end up in a minimum wage part-time job, merely existing, not living.

Those who survive break ups the best are those who returned after maternity leave to their old career and although a large percentage of their salary may be taken up with child care costs, the children will ultimately go to school, they may be promoted, earnings increase and they are able to survive pretty well (excluding the emotional cost of course).

It seems a no brainer but maybe you feel otherwise.

I really appreciate this thread. When I was half way through medical school I fell pregnant with DS and dropped out as I knew the hours and energy required to complete training/ junior doctor years meant I would have nothing left for him. Honestly I barely had enough left for me! I decided to pursue a more family friendly/ work life balance career. I'm a sahp right now, but plan to go back to uni in a few years to finish training for plan b career. Was feeling pretty happy with my choice as I felt I'd done what was best for my son. Well now I'm 7 weeks pregnant again and I'm just terrified of having a daughter! Now I look at my family friendly career plans and think what a shit role model I am, that my dps career continued untouched but I gave up being a doctor to get more family time. I feel like if I have a daughter I've already set the scene that male careers flourish while women give up the chance to reach their highest potential in order to be family minded. In reality these are just nonsense worries, my own mind trying to chew itself to bits for no good reason. But you're so right that we, as mums, can't get it right. We're either failing our children by not being around enough, or failing our children by not being good professional role models! Ive been made to feel like crap by a lot of threads on here too, about how I'm failing my son by not giving him lots of fun at nursery, or risking his future by being an unmarried sahp, and especially by those who say that being a sahp for even a second mean you'll never find work again! I just want to enjoy this time with my son but now I keep panicking that I've messed up!

Just do what is best for you with the opportunities avaliable to you

I've worked pt/ ft and now SAHM in recent years.
Personally, our family struggled with the demands of my ft job on top of the demands of DH's so when my contract ended, we decided that it was better to prioritise family life. DS1 was struggling in particular and is benefiting from the extra time. My job wasn't necessary for survival and we have good plans long term. There are shortages in my proffession so there are routes back in if the goal posts change.
PT was alright, but advertised opportunities are rare and it is still demanding for the pocket money I keep after deductions and costs.

My friend works FT. She is a breadwinner. She has some family support (plus I'm now nearby for emergencies). Her income is more important and she's more ambitious than me so has a greater social need to work.

We are both doing the best with the opportunities that we have

silvery I appreciate you commenting. I was made redundant (like 1000s or women on mat leave or on return to work every year). I could have stayed on the terrible alternative job I was offered but my self respect won out and I said no. If my dh leaves me I’ve done what I can to protect me and the dc (married, my name on everything, savings in my name etc) but to have kept on in that job for fear of being left would have been worse for me than being left. If he walks out tomorrow I have enough to keep us going til I find an entry level job in my old career, soul destroying though it would be. That’s why it’s massively important that advice about being a sahm gets shared non-judgementally because as you have seen not everyone knows how to protect themselves or knows if they can.

Also, fast paced new business is ideal for a sahm! They’ve no preconceptions of how things used to be done so will get on with new ways of working, excellent multitasking and learning on the job skills, can go for hours without a break. I have never been so efficient and effective as a worker since becoming a mother and I’m not the only person I know of that says this is the case.

nordic you’re not a shit role model. You must be pretty young still and loads of people don’t get going until their 30s anyway. Have you thought about helping out at your local secondary in science lessons? I’d imagine they’d snap your hand off and it would give you something really positive to focus on. I’m also sure I’ve seen mums on here doing their medical degrees so don’t give up on your dream if it’s what you want

Ah unfortunately once you withdraw that's it for medicine. The course is so competitive that it's a "once out, always out" one shot kind of thing. But I'm keen to become a physician associate instead - similar work, but less of it. 9-5 mon-fri, no shit work, no endless junior rotations etc. You only ever earn half what a doctor would, but it's still a very good salary. I just need to get my head around the idea of pursuing it as a career in its own right, a goal that I can feel proud of achieving, rather than a consolation prize for not finishing medical school. We're living abroad ATM in a very expensive country where we are living right at the edge of dps salary, and there is no chance of me finding work which would pay more than a childcare provider (not to mention very long waiting lists for such things!), so impossible to go back to work in any capacity right now. But we're moving back to the uk next year so hoping to get things going again then.

Hopefully I’m not teaching you to suck eggs but could you do that medical degree that’s not a doctor degree but it’s a related one and then you switch to onto the dr one after so many years? I’m aware that’s maddeningly vague if you don’t know what I’m on about Physican’s associate sounds really interesting- definitely not a back up though! It must have been very interesting living in a different country - that’s something I’ve always wanted to do.

i agree with all that you say, especially the last bit. I work in a breakfast club and the judging of other parents ( who also use the after school club) is rife - its so sad to see that people can t have it all and most families need two incomes in order to live and eat - being a sahm isnt all roses round the door , yet people like to judge that as well.
its just horrible. lets all just support each other and realise that mums and dads are only doing their best

I'm thinking a lot about this. I've been feeling shit this week as i'm negotiating a small reduction in my hours for when i go back after mat leave. To most people i feel like a cold hearted career woman for continuing to work 5 days. However, at work i feel like a let down who's heart isn't in the job now she's had a baby.

I was a sahp for a very long time and never once felt judged or received judgemental comments in real life. MN, however, is a whole other story.

Hi OP,
Thanks for posting the link for checking your NI contributions. I had only recently (from this site) discovered that as a sahm my contributions are paid, linked to child benefit. I’ve now had a look at my record and seen it in black and white!

Ironically enough I’ve more full years than Dh as a snuck in a couple of extra years through student jobs whilst he didn’t.

Thanks again...

Marriage doesn't make you take on the other persons debts, not in England and Wales anyway.

Dh and I both work.
It’s a hard juggling act. Both our jobs are very much USA oriented so time zones are an issue. We try to be as equal and flexible as we can, alternating long and shorter days at work and days each of us do drop offs and pick ups. It just works on an average week but Illness, work travel etc throw us. No family support (expats) so yeah, it’s very difficult.
Sahp are rare where we live - the system is set up for two working parents because companies based here tend to be family friendly. Not so our employers.
To be honest it’s hard. I feel I never do either role well enough. Work have put me firmly on the mummy track. It’s frustrating and disempowering.

Would I be a sahm? I think maybe but the circumstances would need to be right. Dh would need to earn enough to replace my wage and pension.

I’d never judge sahp or wohp. Everyone does what they think is best within the restrictions they have. I genuinely don’t think either is a superior option always - it’s dependent on individual circumstances.

I DO think there are wider societal issues about why it’s more often women who stay home and how women are not facilitated to stay in work like men are (I believe you were on that previous facilitated men thread krabby which I think is one of the best threads I’ve seen on here.)

And you’re right. It’s hard to discuss the wider issues without people piling on

It's so interesting reading this thread and all the different points and perspectives.

I went back 3 days a week and was lucky my salary covered childcare costs with a bit left. I definitely have found that although expensive having 2 pre schoolers at nursery is logistically quite easy. My eldest starts school next year and both my DH and me have had to reduce our hours to facilitate pick ups and drop offs. My DH is not happy about this but as I pointed out my career is screwed for the time being already so he needs to help a bit more!

I always find it very convenient that those who judge either way often ignore the fact that in many cases there is no choice involved. Many many women cannot afford to work because of the extortionate cost of childcare. Likewise many women can't afford not to work because they contribute significantly to household income needed to pay for mortgages/rent etc. The group that actually has the freedom to choose whether to be a SAHM or WOHM is, I imagine, the minority.

Can anyone link to the facilitated men thread mentioned by backenette?

The80s it does feel like whatever you do someone’s raising a brow but it’s so good schools have wrap around now. My mum used to drop me off to sit outside the heads office as a child so she could go to work and I appreciate now she was very lucky they did that for her.

aunt do not feel guilty you can’t do excessive hours for your workplace! I think that’s got to be the next revolution- with technology and new jobs plus horrendous unemployment there it is not good for society that people feel so much pressure to work hours incompatible with dc.

curbucita it’s the gift that keeps on giving How much more help would it be to put that link on sahm thread than judge and portent destitution!

beetlejizz that’s good to know for the pp! It’s bad isn’t it that I don’t know stuff about the legalities of marriage yet happily entered into it. I’m not the only one either.

bakenette the facilitated man thread was very good! I still facilitate

bobbins it’s what you’ve got to do. So many women don’t have a partner that will help with school runs and end up being stymied for it. It’s so much easier I find for Billy Big Bollocks like my dh to flex or say they’ll be in late and they need to normalise it and make it available to more junior staff.

Worzels exactly. I put about my redundancy repeatedly on threads but those that have their fingers in their ears about sahm and selfish/bad choices ignore it and carry on. I don’t think any mum I know has had a 100% free choice to do as she pleases, work, sah or combo.

Here you go beetlejizz

I’ve bamechanged since then but I’m on it in spades :)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen

Brilliant thread - once the few people who INSISTED there was no issue had put their axes down there were some very thoughtful contributions from both wohm and sahm.

Yes agree completely worzel - the number of women who can genuinely choose is a minority.

I am now an expat so my social circles span both that life and back home. There are a good few expat mums who are genuinely leisured but most of them also face challenges being a trailing spouse.

It’s rarely a free choice. I think families justdo the best with the cards they are given. The wider questions of WHY work is set up to benefit mainly facilitated men are excellent and worth exploring.

To me, the wohm/sahm spats are a convenient distraction from those issues - keep us fighting amongst ourselves so we don’t notice the real structural injustices in our societies.

One can smash the patriarchy from work or Home ;)