To think that students have more rights than teachers ( and that this is not good.)

[malificent7]

If i treated my students the way they treated me id be sacked.

They swear, answer back, are extremely rude and patronising . One even tried to stroke my arm today.....ugggrrr!

I'm not saying poor behaviour is a recent phenomenon.

I'm saying i have noticed an increase in certain attitudes in recent years which seems to allow children to take limited responsibility for their actions or learning and allows some to abdicate responsibility.

People on here have said that usually a child's reaction (if poor) is prompted by what an adult does.
Funny that that's what a parent said ti me after their son assaulted me. My crime which 'provoked' him? Expecting him to sit down, take his coat off and stop being verbally abusive to his peers.

I'm a firm believer in firm and fair strict classrooms where students know boundaries and can learn. Having firm boundaries happens precisely because i care and i want the children to acheive. It is entirely possible to have a friendly, strict classroom rooted in mutual respect.

But you did. You stated that such things did not happen when you were at school. They almost certainly did, but you weren’t aware of them.

Children have always misbehaved and a minority of parents have always supported or even encouraged this.

I don't know whether these parental attitudes are more prevalent now than they were when I was at school. My parents certainly wouldn't have stood up for me if a teacher had punched me in the face, never mind given me an unfair detention. I remember friends' parents doing so though, so I don't think it was particularly unusual for parents to challenge the school where they thought their child had been wronged.

I do think there are some parents who don't think the school has any right to punish their child even if there clearly IS wrongdoing on the part of the child though, and I think that's quite new. The mother of the charming child who beat my son repeatedly with a hard-soled boot in front of a coachload of jeering children - and admitted it - begged and pleaded for her son not to receive a FTE because it might damage his self-esteem. In his defence she pointed out that he only did it because he was trying to curry favour with the other boys. Quite why it was felt that beating my son into a bruised sobbing mess would win him respect and approval wasn't explored. He wasn't excluded. One day of internal isolation and he was off the hook.

That's new, I think.

No. I said there is a difference between the attitudes i see more and more and the attitudes if my parents/ ny friends parenrs.

There has always been some badly behaved children with parents who defend them, but that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about an increase in middling students, nice enough, coasting and lazy who get the message 'don't bother trying because you'll get intervention in y11'.
I was talking to a member of SLT last week. He said 5-10 yeara ago there wasn't a culture of intervention. You came to school, worked hard or not and sat your exams. Sure there was additional support for struggling children abd the odd revision session but none of this 'you've been lazy so we'll pull you from RE, Tutorial, PE etc. You've not bothered all year on practical so have 3 days off timetable to catch it all up'.

We now have parents who are quite happy for their child to coast but when the time comes they expect school to miraculously solve issues emerging from their child's attitude.Those parents previously would have been saying to their child 'where's your revision timetable' but now they ask 'what intervention can they be entered for?' The focus is different and it is that focus which is shifting.

I don’t know, *green(

I’m so so sorry for your poor boy but I do feel on the whole bullying is better dealt with than when I was at school, when it was just awful.

That’s on the whole though and no relation to individual cases.

Your poor son.

But that’s related to work ethic rather than behaviour Maisy

Lazy children are frustrating, but it isn’t the same thing as poor behaviour. Of course you can have a lazy child who behaved badly, but you can also have pleasant, affable, polite, but lazy, students quite frequently

The 2 go hand in hand coldstreams.

I would argue that a child willingly choosing not to work IS a behaviour issue. Just as low level disruption is and not completing homework.

That's where we differ. Behaviour either contributes to learning or it doesn't. A child who isn't following entirely reasonable instructions like 'complete this task' is a behaviour issue regardless of the child's personality.

It isn’t however in the same league as the topic of the op. It’s normal. Irritating, but normal. Children will forget to do their homework, be lazy, forget the correct equipment. To be honest, anyone who is seriously distressed by that probably is in the wrong career.

The idea that all kids who piss around are vulnerable/traumatised or have SEN is nonsense. Some kids piss around because it's more entertaining to them than cracking on with what they're meant to be doing. Some kids are rude to teachers because they are rude to everyone regardless of how that person is to them. Some kids do it because they know they'll get away with it.

School culture is important, as is SLT having teachers' backs.

Is it, now?

Yes. Some kids act out for those reasons but not all.

I think there is a problem with the attitude of some children and some parents. Not entirely a new phenomenon, of course, but I think perhaps more widespread than it was in the past. Bending over backwards to excuse poor attitudes and behaviour does nobody any good. There are some children who struggle due to SEN and so on- but the majority can and should behave.

Children should be expected to display "the basics" of good behaviour, regardless of whether they like the subject/teacher/school in general. At the very least, they should turn up on time, be polite to the teacher and there peers. This does not require the teacher to be a beacon of teaching perfection at all times- this is the very least we can expect from the majority of children. The suggestion by some posters that teachers have to earn the children's respect in order to achieve these basics is bonkers. This is the very minimum of normal behaviour that should be expected, not an earned extra. That's not to say that teachers can behave any way they like, BTW.

As is the idea that children usually only cause trouble or "blow up" if "provoked" is making excuses IMHO. I am not a teacher, but I remember from school days that there was a small but very vocal/disruptive group at school who did not need provocation to cause trouble. Ranging from low level disruption (chatting/messing about/giggling) to shouting out/being rude to the teacher and deliberately trying to wind them up. I remember one teacher (who was actually well liked by almost all pupils- even the ones causing problems) being locked in a cupboard. Several teachers were verbally abused (one racially- and not infrequently) and I can remember at least one being physically attacked by a pupil. None of this was "provoked', just bad behaviour from those children/teens and compounded by poor disciplinary procedures. I was so glad my school streamed after 2nd year and could get away from those pupils who were not interested in education.

A very good friend is a teacher- a good one from what I know. She has been spat at, taunted and threatened (physically) on several occasions, including one occasion whilst pregnant. The "provocation" she gave on the last occasion? Asking a pupil why they had not handed in some course work. And not for the 1st time.

Maisy I agree with regards to intervention. But I think this is down to schools panicking about ensuring kids meet their targets. Very often teachers care more than the kids about them getting the best grade. And that’s wrong.

The result is as you say there is more of a spoon feeding culture.
When I started teaching 20 years ago, you taught as well as you could and that was that. If Johnny got an F it was because he hadn’t put any work in. Now it’s a case of “Johnny got an F!?!?! What should you have done to get him the B he should have got??!!” This kind of displacement of responsibility creates a culture of kids not bothering while their teachers endlessly rush about trying to get them to do better.

I haven’t RtFt yet but I honestly don’t know the answer. I also don’t think we prepare them for life. We molly coddle them into y11 taking responsibility for their lack if revision ourselves . A month later they are in college with a lot more responsibility.

We have a vi form teacher who comes in and takes a few lessons a week. She said if they were talking when she is then she would just send them home.

Maybe we should try this. Just send them home and let the ones who want to listen and learn do that and let the parents deal with the ones who don’t.

It should be the best job in the world but the chatty, self entitled culture stops that.

Although there have always been misbehaving kids, there is far more of a shift in culture in my opinion

• a lot more parents deify their kids, so the kids feel the world revolves around them because they are prioritised in every situation. In a class of 30 this creates problems because they have to conform and act as a unit, when they are used to their every whim and desire being met as capricious individuals.

• there is far more of a consumer market: they expect to have a say and judge and complain and insist when they perceive things aren’t to their liking. Many therefore feel they are in charge. “I learn better in groups” “I was on the interview panel for our geography teacher and thought he performed quite poorly” - there is a mismatch between some schools giving them more responsibility and involving them in decisions they should not be. Students sometimes don’t understand that while their views are of some importance, their expectation should be that the adults make the major decisions.
• there is a general move in society to cock a snoop at teachers and authority. They are the brunt of the joke. They are not to be respected. “Banter” is the currency. Endless programmes are created where cameras film the public being disrespectful and even violent towards the police. The commentary often “charges were dropped on the 19 year old who spat and kicked the police officer”. The standard is set.

• accountability as I’ve said is now far less likely to rest with the child. If you tell parents about some misbehaviour they are far more likely to say “oh what did you say or do for him to react like that?” or just deny it was him. Or say they’d like to talk to their child before commenting. The first response of some parents is that the teachers are making up stories and none of it is true. This kind of attitude gets picked up of course by kids who feel they can act with impunity.

One educational psychologist who used to work at my school once said “Parents worry that their child has low self esteem. But very often the child’s self esteem is in fact too high. They think too much of themselves and this becomes a huge problem”.

DD was shocked when she went to Uni, and was surrounded by students on their phones/pads and chatting during lectures. It’s a weird mindset that has evolved, that you can muck about and still expect good grades. And tantrum and demand extra support and time if you don’t get them.

I’m dreading going into work this morning. Not all classes but one particular one were I’ve tried being firmer and got a row of parents lining up to complain about their dcs punishments (all entirely in line with school policy, yet school doesn’t seem to be supporting me). Perhaps Coldstream can suggest how I run my day better. (I am polite and caring and speak nicely to pupils already thank you).

Makes you wonder how they cope when they hit the world of work. Do they suddenly mature into beautiful butterflies when the consequences are being sacked?

I’m not posting here to give you advice, Mistress, although it’s much more than being polite.

If you have a tricky class it has to be organised to the ninth degree which can be tedious. I have one myself this afternoon for two hours. They are improving a piece of writing. If I tell them just to do it using my ‘ebi’ (I hate it but it is school policy) it would be chaos.

So I have given them all a specific paragraph to improve and it’s given to them all step by step. I’m not going to lie, that’s a pain to do but I also know they’ll be able to get on with that with minimal input from me for the first fifteen minutes which will get the lesson off onto the right note.

If you really took from my post that all it took was being polite I’m afraid that’s a misreading. It can be a lot of work. Largely, it’s about seeing where problems crop up and seeking to diffuse them ahead of time. And you have to praise and thank the behaviour you want to see.

november some people just don’t suit school and are fine when they leave. Don’t forget we are talking about a minority of people here. Most children behave most of the time.

Some don’t cope. They end up in a bit of a mess. It’s very sad.

Mistress your problem is the lack of support and not particularly the kids.

You can’t operate like that.

Cauliflowersqueeze
You have explained it better than me. It's all little parts of a culture shift which adds up to a whole picture.
To be honest, anyone who is seriously distressed by that probably is in the wrong career.
There's something about how you write that reminds me of a colleague who was always 'they're fine with me...' or a formwr member of SLT who used to blame teaching staff for any issue in their classroom.
Where have I said that I am distressed by students not doing homework or being lazy?

I have said students routinely not following instructions is a behaviour issue. It is.
I'm not saying it is the worst behaviour on earth, but it is still a behaviour issue.

As soon as we start saying 'but that's normal' we start to explain away students not following instructions, in which case why bother following other instructions thry don't like.
When I worked in a different school it wasn't just big issues which stopped learning. It was the whole culture of not feeling like taking your coat off, not feeling like doing thr work, it beung perfectly fine to wander across fhr room to talk to friends as a standard for how even thr nicer students acted. I can'r help but feel that those things being normal meant that telling thr teacher to 'fuck off you daft cunt' wasn't viewed as being that bad.

The school ended up in SM and had quite a bit of change since then, but the same school over 5 years later still has issues with behaviour because they are still trying to shift culture and the culture pupils arrive witj.

I get given difficult groups at school because I have good classroom management and students know I'm friendly, firm and fair. Thinking small behaviour issues are behaviour issues is certainly not being distresed by them. What a silly thing to suggest.

Agree with PP who says it's down to school leadership. I work in a big comprehensive in London and kids are nice, generally polite and very seldom actively rude. Swearing (within earshot of teachers anyway) is rare. That's because if they swear they will
be excluded from the lesson. There aren't second chances. Patents will be called, apology letters required, detention served etc. In 5 years of teaching there, no student has ever sworn at me. Sure, there have been examples of defiance, bad attitude etc, but a basic level of respect is enforced effectively.

Maisy

I never say ‘they are fine for me’.

It’s really unhelpful and quite rude.

I do think sometimes there can be a reluctance on the part of teachers to change or alter their approach to some situations.

The point is that there is a difference in the behaviour that the OP describes and the lazy, convenient deafness behaviour you describe, yet from what you are saying to me (apologies if I have misunderstood) it’s all poor behaviour, it should all be sanctioned.

Sometimes sanctions can perpetuate, excacerbate or even cause a problem. I find a lot of the time we can have quite an emotional response to situations, especially if someone is purposefully disrupting a carefully planned lesson or if it is something else that pushes your buttons. We put chairs on desks on Friday. There is always one child who has a giant bag who knocks a chair over. I did get really irritated with it the week before last because it made such a hideous noise and while it hadn’t exactly been done on purpose it was done through being silly and turning around. Of course, the student became hostile in the face of my irritation and was rude.

I contacted home who were pleasant enough. As it turned out I wasn’t in in the Monday and Tuesday as I was off with a virus-like thing and so when I was back in in the Wednesday I spoke to the boy and said I had considered it, was prepared to excuse the original sanction as there seemed little point in it a whole week later, but could he please be more careful in future.

On Friday I rang home again to tell his parents how delightful and helpful he had been.

Sometimes, you get more flies with honey

There's something about how you write that reminds me of a colleague who was always 'they're fine with me...

Maisy I agree that has to be the most unhelpful almost arrogant statement from a colleague. I cringe when I hear it used.

These type of thread always used to make me want to know at what age these behaviours suddenly become unacceptable.

Over time I have come to realise that its not an age but its when these teenagers/adults leave education.

For some unknown reason throwing chairs across the room, hitting people, swearing at people and other behaviours are just not tolerated.

Its fairly easy to see how people say 'you must have done something to provoke X' when this is what the standard response to those working in education is when things kick off.