To think that students have more rights than teachers ( and that this is not good.)

[malificent7]

If i treated my students the way they treated me id be sacked.

They swear, answer back, are extremely rude and patronising . One even tried to stroke my arm today.....ugggrrr!

But you are right Greensleeves. There needs to be a debate and a charter detailing the minimum standard of what teachers are or are not expected to put up with. If those terms are breached by students more than once teachers should have the right to refuse to teach them.

I didn't think it needed articulating particularly, Greensleeves but how about a 'Contract'? Teachers will be qualified and able to teach to x,y,z standard - and pupils will available and attentive to learning. As the children are minors, each contract is signed by the parents who will have those children to homeschool if the contract is frustrated by their own child. It's effective, as Thecrabbypatty has mentioned.

I don't know exactly when this disrespect crept in but it's making teaching untenable. Whatever the reasons, the teachers and the willing to learn have to be brought together - the minority of trouble-makers needs to kowtow or be sent elsewhere because if they can't behave then a school environment is not for them. Their parents to be made responsible for their learning then. I have no problem with that. They created them, raised them unchecked - their problem.

For the above to happen some serious legislation perhaps? Make it apolitical so that no party can shirk it or blame another. I think it's doable.

So far this school year I have had chairs thrown at me, been spat at, kicked, bitten, punched, pinched, slapped, sworn at, hit with a stick, stabbed with a pencil, had shoes thrown at me and had my hair pulled. I work in a mainstream primary school.

Greensleeves the parents need to work doesn't trump a teacher's right not to be abused. If the parents are ineffectual then that is for them to address and if their lives are made miserable by having to deal with the product of their lack of parenting then... that's sad but their problem.

Loads of schools already have those behaviour contracts though, my two have certainly signed them as is standard at their school. There's a behaviour policy which looks extremely rigorous on paper...but behaviour is still pretty shocking and isolation/detention/FTEs just aren't working for the worst behaved kids.

I'm not claiming to have the answers. I just think there need to be some concrete measures proposed that would actually make life easier for teachers, rather than just depair about how horrendous is is.

Mutual respect goes two ways.

It’s very rare for students to explode without any provocation. I’m not saying it never happens, but it’s quite unusual.

I think that forcing potentially thousands of families onto the benefits system because parents have to give up work to "homeschool" kids who have been excluded would be untenable and expensive. Maybe e need more, and better, PRU provision?

Better contracts then with the end result that if a teacher is unable to teach due to student disruption, the child is delivered to their parent - or parent has to collect it.

I think that if the onus were put onto parents and they would see that their responsibility is ultimate, they would quickly pull their child into line and if they don't, they have the pleasure of that child's company for many more hours of the day.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe - Well said, far better than I put it! And yes it would mean a huge upheaval and serious family impact on those how would yes, probably have to leave their jobs to home school. But exclusions are not taken lightly, they take months and sometimes years to trigger and in all that time the 95% of brilliant kids and their teachers have to have their lives and learning disrupted. It puts the accountability squarely at the parents door.

Why? Why can't those families tell their children to go to school and behave? What's so special about them?

All the child has to do - is go to school and behave. Is that really so very taxing?

And what about parents who can’t do that?

Do you really think that's all that's required? For parents to tell their kids to go to school and behave? Sorry LyingWitch, but I find that staggeringly naive. If it were that simple, there wouldn't be a crisis at all.

It can be lying but the point is that it punishes the parent(s)

Yes, some parents are arseholes. But not most in my experience. Most / many are struggling. They love their D.C., are worried about them, may or may not have made mistakes in the past, may or may not have had a difficult time.

It solves nothing from either a societal or individual viewpoint to say ‘your kid, your problem.’

it’s no surprise that behaviour is worse - new specifications are deliberately more difficult to raise standards —eye roll—, fuck all money for support services, fuck all money for pastoral support, fuck all money for early college or alternative placements.

Plus. Massive numbers of supply/inexperienced teachers because of the retention crisis.

My solution, in my classroom is to draw on my extensive pastoral experience and build relationships with my classes that mean they don’t want to piss me off. I’m also completely consistent in terms of behaviour management. But I’m lucky, in that I work in a small secondary (inner city, tough, but small) with an SLT who give me the time to do that.

Thecrabbypatty, I'm probably outspoken about it because I'm not in that sector myself. I really value education and I have no time for people who don't. If they want to disregard it, fine by me but if they stop me from getting it, I'll fight back.

My children are young but I can tell you this, if a teacher reports to me that they've been troublesome at school then I will be nipping that in the bud very fast. I don't care if I come across as an ogre or cruel, it's my responsibility as a parent to not let my children negatively impact other people.

I expect the same from other parents and if they don't have that same value then truly, I don't care how hard the sanctions are.

We need that DogsTrust sticker (A dog is for life, not just Christmas) and transpose it with children because some parents are not doing their jobs.

The teachers on MN who are at the end of their rope with poor behaviour - what would you like done about it? What would work? Is it more support from SLT, or a restructuring of the way behaviour is managed? Do the available sanctions of detention/isolation/exclusion not work, or are they just not applied properly? Is it lack of support from parents and carers?

Personally, I think there has been a societal shift towards things being negotiable with kids.
E.g. Make 2 different meals, snack when hungry and don't worry about finishing your tea, don'r sanction your children, let them 'express themselves' (aka be gobby things).
This sits alongside a shift in attitude from parents where teachers should ensure their precious DC gets the grades even if they don't bother doing anything.

When i was in school, if I didn't do as well as I'd have hoped on a test, my parents would start by asking me if i revised enough. Now the default for some is to demand answers from the teacher.

Equally, you only have to sre how many threads on here are from parents outlining why their DC shouldn't follow rules they don't like, why sanctions are encouraging blind obedience (or whatever other cultish they want to emotively use). Ditto for people thinking 'my child said..' and people replying 'report to the head / go to ofsted'. There is a culture where there's no respect and soke parents seem to have a school sized chip on their shoulder

I think most parents are lovely and supportive but the minority of parents who think the sun shines out their child's backside and school should give their child the special treatment is getting bigger and louder.

In terms of a solution, I think more schools should clamp down on the basics (prepared for school, on time, classwork, homework, basic manners to all) and sanction consistently those students who don't meet basic expectations. I know some will say 'mean teacher power trip' but if you stop that, you stop big things and I'm endlessly frustrated that good hard working children get a disrupted education becausr Sir is having to wait AGAIN for some students to STFU when he is teaching.

I think too much time and effort is directed to lazy students who can't be arsed and yet feel entitled to everyone pulling out all the stops in y11. I personally refuse to offer anything extra in y11 to any student who doesn't have the basics (polite and positive attitude, tries their best in class and on homework). More schools should take a hardline on that in my opinion. Give the extra support to the quiet forgotten middle students who would appreciate it instead of rude naughty ones.

I think there needs to be more consistency in schools too. I work in a good school and many of the issues I deal with on a daily basis stem from inconsistency within yhe staff. SLT have told us to hold the line on x y z ahd there's always some idiot who opts to be the weak link and let the students off because they're desperate for yhe students to like them, they are too lazy to follow procedure or they just feel like doing iy how they want to (nit getting that consistency isn't to teach stronger staff how ti do their job, it's aboit consistency for the children and it enables weaker staff to actually teach). SLTs need to deal with staff who do that because it breeds resentment with staff like me who do as we are supposed to.

So essay aside (i tried to explain it fairly):

• more schools need to clamp down on thr basics
• staff who try to be matey should be shot because they make life difficult for everyone
• schools shouldn't indulge the loud whiney my chikd is the next messiah
• it would be nice for the group of 'those parents' to be decreasing rather than increasing

It’s very rare for students to explode without any provocation.

I agree with you about the need for mutual respect, a lot of the issues I have had to deal with were certainly made worse by some teachers attitudes, but sadly there are also children out there where telling them no is provocation enough, or whose anger isn't actually even caused by school. It's not uncommon for children to act out at school because of problems elsewhere.

coldstream, there's a lot of help and support out there for parents and the ones that grab that, great.

The parents you're referring to then... what is the issue if they love and care for their children? Are those children disruptive?

Either way, it can't go round on an endless cycle of teaching standards dropping so far because the good ones move off away into other sectors. Something has to change and ultimately, a parent takes responsibility for their child.

I work in Alternative Provision (PRU). I think that early intervention in a therapeutic environment would be better for the children displaying the kind of extreme behaviour that gets them sent to us. Most of ours arrive over half way through key stage 4, after being effectively excluded from mainstream, while remaining in mainstream (multiple exclusions, long term isolation). The children who come to us are some of the most vulnerable in the system. I came to AP from mainstream, and it completely changed my view. I don't have to teach them in a class of 30. Neither they nor their teacher deserved that. It's funding though, of course.

When I first started teaching, I was so bad at it that by rights I probably should never have passed my NQT year.

I had been raised by very strict and demanding parents who looking back stifled my own personality and scorned any views of my own.

I thought that if you shouted at children they would do as they were told. I thought it was OK to be sarcastic and unpleasant in my tone.

I am now (completely) different. I had an ephiphany when I tripped over next to a horse. As strange as it sounds, the horse tried to bolt as I’d tripped over a rake and it clattered to the ground, but he couldn’t. I realised he was terrified and spoke gently to him until he’d settled.

It’s strange how a simple movement can tap something in your brain. I started reading and processing and understanding.

I realised praise was key, I had to praise the behaviour I wanted. Thank you, you sat down really promptly then. Thank you for doing what I asked first time. I appreciate that. Well done for coming in calmly, I can see that was hard with all the noise outside.

I only shout if there is (say) an emergency like someone’s about to bring a shelf crashing down on their head. Occasionally I have to raise my voice. I always apologise and say ‘I am sorry I had to shout then but it got noisy in here.’

I do not give detentions. Detentions just limit a child’s opportunity to let off steam and make their day harder. If someone is being disruptive I tell them to go and step outside for a minute to calm down. They know this is not a punishment. It’s an opportunity to be sensible.

I do call parents. I tell them their child is lovely. I also explain that their child had a problem in today’s lesson and could they have a word.

I am honest with my students. Sometimes I tell them I am now allowed to tell them something but I don’t lie. I tell them snippets from my life. I tell them I like them.

I mark their work regularly. This means they get praise through their work. If they make insufficient effort I say they have to complete at home or if they can’t do that come and speak to me.

I drill the importance of manners to them. Before Christmas I accidentally trod on a girls bag. She shouted at me ‘Miss, do you mind not stepping on my bag?’ Old me would have shouted ‘how dare you be so rude?’ Luckily now I am different. I said ‘Sophie, I’m sorry, I didn’t see it. I have no problem with you telling me I was standing on it, but could you rephrase that a little more politely?’ She said ‘sorry miss, it’s just it’s exoensive and I didn’t want it being ruined.’ I point out to students all the time I am not rude to them and they agree. I ask them to not tap pens when I am talking or yawn loudly or stretch. Again, I point out I listen politely to them if they are speaking to me.

I never have behaviour issues now.

I’m so grateful to that horse. It made me realise a lot of what looks like aggression is posturing and defensiveness and fear. I realised I behaved for parents and teachers because I was frightened, not because of respect. It made me realise diffusing a situation sometimes is more important than ‘winning.’

To actually contribute to the question in the title, I don't think it's the right way to look at the problem of behaviour. The adults create the environment, in the classroom, and most importantly throughout the school. I don't say that sometimes I feel a bit helpless when the challenge is high, but it doesn't last long. But again, we have a great staff, including SLT.

I used to think this when I was a student and no one would ducking sit down and do the work and listen.

There’s no respect left.

Completely agree Madonna

‘You’re the adult’ is the root of the problem. The idea that no child can ever be naughty or nasty but merely ‘in need of support’ and, on the other hand, adults need to behave perfectly all the time Means that children are no longer afraid of teachers but the other way around.

High expectations means enforcing them and being supported by the SLT in so doing. Unless there is very strong contrary evidence, teachers should be believed over students where there is disagreement over fact.

A teacher should be a good role model but under no obligation to be unrealistically perfect all the time. If pupils are grossly disrespectful they should be excluded from the classroom until they can behave otherwise.

The above probably appears horribly reactionary but is what private school parents are prepared to pay 10s of thousands of pounds to get, although even private schools are tainted by the money and struggle to exclude pupils (except the top few who have so many applicants that they do not care).

TheFallenMadonna
I agree with you on some students needing an alternative curriculum because what we are offering in mainstream isn't enough to support their issues.

coldstreams
I agree with you on being polite and having 2 way respect but disagree over detentions. I think they have a place.

The idea that we should have to bend iver backwards to be afforded basic respect doesn't sit well with me and some of what you say has a tone similar to people who say 'if you make your lessons engaging and entertaining then they'll behave'.

I treat my students with respect and dignity. I expect them to treat me abd their peers in that way. I would say that I ak strict but I'm firm and fair.

I don't believe that the increase in shocking behaviour comes from staff. By secondary it is an attitude brought up into school and it's up to school to decide if they are going to accept that or not.