To think that students have more rights than teachers ( and that this is not good.)

[malificent7]

If i treated my students the way they treated me id be sacked.

They swear, answer back, are extremely rude and patronising . One even tried to stroke my arm today.....ugggrrr!

You're the adult does not equal there's no such thing as bad behaviour.

I don’t believe that if we make our lessons entertaining children will behave.

I do think that sometimes ‘boring’ lessons can actually help settle a rowdy class.

However ultimately we have to work with what we’ve got. There is no point in setting ourselves and them up to fail.

Planning does need to take account of the ‘type’ of class you have. I give boisterous classes something simple to do as soon as they come in. I stick it into their books and have the books out on the desks ready. I put pens out for those who I know won’t have them. Then I can do the register in silence and we’ve had a lovely calm start. Other people with the same classes are surprised at this. I’m surprised they think rushing around in a cluster giving out books and pens and then expecting silence for the register works.

If the work is too hard then there will be behaviour problems. No one likes feeling stupid. No one is more sensitive to that than a teenager with a reputation to uphold.

Fluster, not cluster. Autocorrect

It's really good to hear a range of views from teachers and non teachers on here. It's clear that at the end of the day we all want the same thing, to teach. In a happy and productive environment. How we achieve that across the board is the issue. It's no good having smug safe haven schools (guilty!) when the rest of our colleagues are having to face this crap. There are some students who teams of pastoral support staff, child psychologists and senior staff cannot get a handle on. When all options have been exhausted I'm sorry but ultimately the responsibility lies with the parent. If the parent cannot cope then that's a whole other thread but we cannot forget that teachers are their to teach and that education is a privilege, not a right.

Saying the adults set the tone is not saying that if you planned engaging lessons you'd have no behaviour problems (mark of an out of touch SLT right there).

coldstreams
I see what you mean in terms of strategies to match the studnets and groups.

I do all of that and yet still find that the bulk of poor behaviour culture doesn't come from indiviudal teachers

Obviously the school you work in has a big impact on the behaviour you experience. As with having a “good sleeping” baby I would be careful about how much I assumed to be down to me and how much other factors.

*there

It comes from all sorts of places Maisy

It comes from defensiveness - can’t achieve is hard to swallow. Won’t achieve is easier.

It comes from special needs, which aren’t always diagnosed. I taught a girl last year who clearly had autism. She liked to draw. We agreed it was fine for her to draw when I was talking to the class as long as she put her notebook away as soon as I wanted written work. I then had a TA who yelled at her for drawing. I told the TA afterwards that she had autism. ‘Well, in the real world, no ones going to let her draw because she has autism’

Shouting doesn’t help, screaming doesn’t help. Yet I hear teachers doing both. Anally insisting that one piece of forgotten homework is punished when forgetting to mark books for weeks on end.

Poverty. Not just of money. I taught a boy who told me his parents died of drug overdoses. I gave my condolences and I must have looked shocked. He said ‘it’s ok, they were smack heads.’ He had learned to be hard because life was hard. Why should he give a shit about me giving a detention? He’d already lost everything.

If we are going to change children’s behaviour we have got to change the mindset of punishment and sanctioning and humiliation. It doesn’t work. And in many cases it is counter productive.

I have to take issue with "education is a privilege not a right", crabby - that simply isn't true. Nor should it be.

Agreed Maiseypops. When teacher after teacher has the same problems with the same child, at some point the fact that it may actually be down to shock horror... The Child must be taken on board. I think what happens in this instance was the basis of the thread. Most teachers are old friends with these characters and have all had dealings with them in some way, but there is always one in every staffroom that has to say "oh but they are an angel for me!" Don't get me wrong, I have occasionally been that teacher (cringe) but I put that more down to liking my subject than to me personally.

Mistress

I have worked in a number of schools now.

The first one I worked in was pretty bad but I didn’t help myself. But I know that now.

I then moved to a more “middle class” school although like most comprehensives it was a mixed bag. It was better but when I look back children behaved for me as they were worried about detentions, not because of my skills.

Then I moved to a school with a number of children who spoke English as a second language (two-thirds) and found that most children were respectful to teachers but we often had conflicts and arguments breaking out amongst each other. It was there really I started to think about “being the change I wanted to see.”

Then I moved to a VERY poor school in a predominantly white area. The building was falling to bits. It was incredible most of the children got to school. A lovely girl I had a good relationship with was caught stealing £5 from a charity collection. She was hysterical when caught. Her family had no money until her mums benefits came through and she wanted to buy them some food and planned to put it back.

The school I now work in I think is normal. Everyone else thinks it is shockingly bad.

I never say ‘they are fine for me.’

My rules about mutual respect extend to adults as well as children.

No it is a damn privilege Greensleeves, all over the world parents go without to pay to send their kids to the most basic of schools. Kids walk miles in ridiculous conditions to get an education, and some kids desperately want to learn and are stopped by their family or culture. It is a crying shame that kids in the UK and other countries piss on the opportunities given to them.

Just because the child is displaying the same behaviours with all teachers doesn't mean the adults (together) aren't the ones to deal with it. But not piecemeal. A concerted, consistent approach.

And yes, education is a right.

And other children being denied that right doesn't make it less so.

In this country, education is a right. A right that people have fought and died for. Not a privilege.

They don’t piss on the opportunities at all.

Has it occurred to anybody that the children who walk miles to school in third world countries are actually the majority of children in UK schools?

Most children behave. Children who don’t behave in the third world are scavenging the streets. Is that what we want? It’s not what I want.

Yes I agree that's its a small proportion of kids that ruin its for the others and drive teachers out of teaching. You cannot deny that there is a relationship to declining standards of behaviour and the teacher recruitment crisis.

I don't deny that behaviour issues are a problem (how could I, in my job?). I don't think blaming children is either reasonable or helpful. Adults are the only people who can deal with it. But not individually. Blaming individual teachers is also unreasonable.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that. I believe parents should shoulder some of the responsibility for their children's behaviour. I would prefer to see the money and man power spent on the kids who play cricket and want to learn, but that's just me. As another poster said all we expect of children is to show up and behave.

I was the disruptive naughty child at school eventually sent to PRU.

I wasn’t horrible because I didn’t like my teacher, I was bored and didn’t know how to get that across without being accused of being rude. I would do the work or find it too easy and be bored so I would mess around which obviously escalated.

Detentions/taking my phone/internal or external exclusions didn’t bother me at all infact it just put me in closer contact with other naughty children.

What worked for me was the PRU because of the smaller classes and less pressure on the teachers my work was set to challenge me but also in a way that fitted my learning style. Not everyone can learn from books and being spoken to some need to be hands on even if it is maths. I did so well at PRU my school wanted me back I lasted a month back in mainstream before I was sent away again.

The woman could have lost her job over the lies the girl told!

A friend of mine is about to at best lose her job, at worst be struck off teaching for this very thing. Sadly for her there were no witnesses and it’s a child’s word against hers. The investigation has revolved around her having to prove she DIDN’T do it, rather than there having to be evidence she DID. She’s devastated.

She needs to contact her Union.

However, she will not be struck off from teaching on the basis of what you have said.

I've been teaching in Scotland for 20 years. I would suggest:

A Kindergarten stage from 3-7 with a focus on the social, emotional and psychomotor domains as well as the development of executive function skills. This should have a 1:4 staff pupil ratio and a qualified teacher for every 12 pupils. Encouragement (through salary) for Masters Level qualified ECPs and teachers in the Early Years. Class size capped at 24 pupils.

Assessment from an Ed Psych at 6 and half if there are any concerns regarding a child from home or Kindergarten. A FULLY RESOURCED Additional Support Needs Plan, if required. School Nurse and School Psychologist consistently available to support children and families. Community Link worker to support parenting skills. Class size capped at 20 pupils for Primary (7-12 years). No homework in Primary.

And, not forcing every child through academic study at secondary. Allow work placements, say one day a week, from 14 years old. Arithmetic available as a course as well as Maths, for example. Class sizes capped at 20 for all subjects for both pupil & staff mental health. PSAs (with a career structure) allocated on a full time basis to those pupils who require them. Later start to the school days for pupils (staff start at 9am, pupils at 11am). Staff meetings, marking and prep done before school day rather than after.

Stop collecting all but essential data.

This would cost a fortune though.