To really hate it when atheists take the piss out of those who believe in God?

[sharkirasharkira]

I have several FB friends who are obvious atheists, and often share things about science and/or about the concept of God being stupid -basically saying that anyone who believes in God is an idiot, a child (with an 'imaginary friend') or someone who has no idea about science and the universe.

I get that not everyone has faith in a higher being/religion etc but why the childish name calling and the necessity to take the piss out of those who do? It just really irritates me! Belief in God and an appriciation of science are not mutually exclusive. I find it quite offensive that people who don't know my personal beliefs are essentially saying that if I believe in God I must be an idiot or a child who believes in magical sky fairies, because theres no possible way I can believe in evolution (for example) and be an agnostic.

Aibu to think that people should just let others believe what they want to believe without mocking them for it, even if they don't agree with it?

namechanger You're in Scotland and probably don't understand the madness entailed to get a place at a Cof E school. There's a lot of sucking up to vicars. I went to a C of E and observed it first hand and deliberately didn't send my boys to the desired school. They went to a non denominational one and later to private school. But that's another story. Anyway I still believe in God despite the frothing on this thread and many others.

That's because it is discrimination.

It would be rare to not be approved. Unless you were showing very strong views against religion. In which case why would you want to work in such school?
You aren't getting the role because your not best suited for it which is the case with many other jobs.

Nobody wants to set up atheist schools. What we want are secular schools, where religion is taught as a subject in RE and not mentioned anywhere else.

See we do have non-denominational schools which religion is only spoke about during religious and moral education. I didn't realise this wasn't the case in England, sorry.

Heregoeseverything and derxa, yeah I can see that it is very different school systems. It's not that crazy to get into school here. Catchment area is your biggest concern really.

In regards to religious schooling, I really don't see the issue unless it is a case of brainwashing, which it isn't.

You don't have to send your child to a religious school, and if you chose to you can opt them out of religious activities, or certainly here you can.

Rubbish, as detailed elsewhere on this thread. The only state schools available to my child were CofE, because of where I live, and because of the overall shortage of school places. Y

I could withdraw him from collective worship, but it would single him out horribly as ‘different’ and also mean he would never have the chance of receiving a headteacher’s award or an achievement certificate in assembly, or of performing in a class assembly performance. That’s a pretty major part of the communal life of the school.

They aren't getting state funding to promote their faith, it's for the same resources as any other school to follow the curriculum and educate the children which go there. Faith just happens to be part of the school ethos.

Again nonsense. They are allowed to present their faith as factual/true in religious education lessons, and their religious education inspection is conducted by the Church, not Ofsted.

To work in a RC catholic school here you do need to be approved by the church, but you don't need to be RC. I can see how you may view this a discrimination

That’s because it is.

but I would expect the same if atheist schools were introduced (which I would support), teachers needing to be approved to make sure they aren't going to bring any religious propaganda with them.

No one is suggesting setting up atheist schools, and I’m unsure what the ‘test’ for atheism would be. But do you think non-Christian teachers in Christian schools bring ‘atheist propaganda’ with them?!

As it stands, in England it is not possible to set up even a secular school. New faith schools are permitted, and permitted to discriminate against four year olds in the admission practices.

I don't think anyone is more entitled to a school place, nor do I think prayer must be part of all schools.

Unfortunately, both those things happen. Compulsory worship is a requirement of all schools in England. A third of schools give Christian children (either Catholic or CofE) preferential access over other children. For state schools.

Apart from the harm to individual local children who cannot attend their local schools as a result, the impact on traffic, air quality and social integration are also problems.

So you’ll understand that I don’t feel terribly respected by Christians who support and enjoy these privileges at the expense of me and my child. It’s often very hard to bite my tongue when they moan about being disrespected by people saying nasty things.

i am late to this debate and i realise this .i would say i am a non church going christian .easter is my only attendance usually .i was brought up to attend church and feel i should go .but i dont actually like big gatherings so just believe what i think in private .i believe god would welcome all people gay straight trans just a few examples .the church today may not. but gods basis was inclusion for all and this has been forgot over the years ,on the 12 december 1996 my baby son was seriously ill with meningitis /sepsis .his organs were failing ,the doctor told my hubby and i look he will not see out the night .the best you can do is pray and i felt something or someone was with my boy that night .yes you may laugh i dont actually mind .because i will never move from the belief that my boy was watched over that night .and yes now he is 22 .engaged to be married .sometimes the church is at fault for intolarance
towards others not the religion itself

namechanger- all schools - even in Scotland have a legal requirement to "lead active worship".

If you managed to escape that you were lucky.
Non denominational schools often have a high element of religious indoctrination. Our primary certainly did as it had a very religious head teacher, I know of similar non doms where daily prayer etc is practiced too, so I guess there must be many more- this is in Scotland.

their religious education inspection is conducted by the Church, and Ofsted.
www.rdbe.org.uk/schools/information-for-schools-3/information-for-schools-2/voluntary-aided-voluntary-controlled-schools/frequently-asked-questions-2
I worked in a C of E school but it was really just the local village school. No faith required from parents or staff. We taught the LA religious education curriculum plan. The vicar came in about once a week. Told stories and sang songs. We had three church services a year. In RE lessons I said 'Christians believe' or 'Muslims believe' We covered all the main religions through the curriculum. No brainwashing whatsoever.

derxa that example sounds exactly like brainwashing.

I support freedom of speech but people should try to be reasonably polite to others. If they can't well I still support freedom of speech.

On state schooling I would support removing all religion from state funded schools. That is quite complex as C of E and Catholics tend to own the buildings provided free to the state to educate those children I think so it would involve a lot of work and complexity eg the C of E could choose to take the schools back into private hands and charge fees as one option or go fully secular and the school would have to find other buildings or pay rent to the church.

Derxa*

Good for you. Most of us aren't that lucky.

Anyway the point remains.

In my town there are 4 primary schools. 1 is RC and 1 is CofE. The others are non-affiliated. This means that Christian parent get the choice of at least 3 schools, if not 4 depending on how strict the schools are being. The rest of us get 2.

They are all state funded, yet myself and the other non-christians in my town have considerably less choice while paying just as much in taxes and council fees.

Now consider if they were all secular. Every parent would get the choice of 4 schools, so nobody would lose out. Any religious instruction can then take place after school at church or in the home.

The only possible reason to object to this solution is because you want to maintain a position of privilidge for Christian children. Hardly fair is it?

derxa, you’re right, I was imprecise. I was speaking in the context of a statement about the content of RE lessons and expected my response to be read in that context, but you’re right, I should have been specific.

Section 48 inspections (inspectors chosen by the school/church) inspect the content of RE lessons. Section 5 inspectors (Ofsted) are specifically excluded from doing this. The RE curriculum is set by the governors.

I’m glad your CofE school was reasonably inclusive. Do you accept that this isn’t a universal experience in faith schools, and understand why many people feel discriminated against and angry about it?

I may as well tell you a story seeing as you think it's brainwashing. The last service of the year was Leavers' Service. One year we had two pupils with ASD. The vicar handed out Bibles to the Y6s. One of the ASD pupils refused the Bible and yelled, 'I want a present not a fucking Bible!'
No one turned a hair. RE was actually quite a popular lesson with lots of discussion about a whole range of things. The parents weren't church goers and the pupils weren't religious either. Children are so brainwashed that church attendance is plummeting fast.

The last service of the year was Leavers' Service......The vicar handed out Bibles to the Y6s.

You are too close to this situation to even be objective about it.

Children are so brainwashed that church attendance is plummeting fast.

Which makes faith schools at their current (and soon to increase) levels even less justifiable.

Do you accept that this isn’t a universal experience in faith schools, and understand why many people feel discriminated against and angry about it? I do accept this. The whole admissions system is horrible in England. Such angst about SATs and league tables.I'm Scottish and everybody goes to the local school as a rule. On the other hand Nicola's Education results seem to be terrible for pupils in 'deprived areas'. So if you live in East Renfrewshire in a lovely sandstone villa then the school will probably get better results.
But there is also the issue of RC and non RC schools which cause division and sectarianism.

It's actually an easy task to see how London faith schools discriminate. The LAs all produce shiny pamphlets and many will say X faith school handles their own admissions, where usually the criteria puts faith above distance. So, if they are undersubscribed they have to take people from any faith by distance, but not if they are oversubscribed. And of course there are also the employment rules.

Now imagine this happening in any other area of British society. Want a job at Tescos? RBC? Suppose they said sure but we prioritize CofE applicants above others, and if there are jobs available, heathens can have them.

You are too close to this situation to even be objective about it. I'm not even trying to be objective. I'm relating my experiences as a Scot teaching in a C of E school and attending a C of E. I can post what I like within talk guidelines.

I could withdraw him from collective worship, but it would single him out horribly as ‘different’ and also mean he would never have the chance of receiving a headteacher’s award or an achievement certificate in assembly, or of performing in a class assembly performance. That’s a pretty major part of the communal life of the school.

That is awful, and would never happen here.
If parents chose for their child to be opted out here, the school must make suitable arrangements for the child to participate in a worthwhile alternative activity. In no circumstances should a pupil be disadvantaged as a result of withdrawing.

Again nonsense. They are allowed to present their faith as factual/true in religious education lessons, and their religious education inspection is conducted by the Church, not Ofsted.

Religious schools also follow the same religious and moral education as other schools, which encourages them to explore all religions. All schools are inspected by HMIE.

No one is suggesting setting up atheist schools, and I’m unsure what the ‘test’ for atheism would be. But do you think non-Christian teachers in Christian schools bring ‘atheist propaganda’ with them?!

No, but they could change the way certain things are taught because it isn't their beliefs and some people can't hide that. I would find this the same as an overly religious person, I don't think either would do children justice in making up their own minds.
This is another posters comment: 'Non denominational schools often have a high element of religious indoctrination. Our primary certainly did as it had a very religious head teacher' if they had been more selective in appointing a headteacher who echoed the views and values of the school, perhaps it would have been different.

The only religious school in my catchment area was the RC school. There are children from other faiths within the school because of this. Children here aren't prioritised, the percentage of RC pupils is less than half, yet some RC children didn't get a place. It is a very popular school, and many non-religious parents want their child to attend. Every child within catchment have the opportunity for a place at all schools within area.

Just because it's very different where we are doesn't make what I'm saying 'rubbish' or 'nonsense' I agree with you in that school systems need to change.

^That is awful, and would never happen here.
If parents chose for their child to be opted out here, the school must make suitable arrangements for the child to participate in a worthwhile alternative activity. In no circumstances should a pupil be disadvantaged as a result of withdrawing.^

The experiences of my Scottish friends are very, very different to this utopian description.

I could withdraw him from collective worship, but it would single him out horribly as ‘different’ and also mean he would never have the chance of receiving a headteacher’s award or an achievement certificate in assembly, or of performing in a class assembly performance. That’s a pretty major part of the communal life of the school. But collective worship covers a wide range of activities. Most of them not religious.

The experiences of my Scottish friends are very, very different to this utopian description.

In that case I would get them to complain, as it is quoted from 'CURRICULUM FOR EXCELLENCE - PROVISION OF RELIGIOUS AND MORAL EDUCATION IN NON-DENOMINATIONAL SCHOOLS and RELIGIOUS EDUCATION IN ROMAN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS' which all schools should be following in accordance with the Scottish Government.

JassyRadlett I am in Scotland.

It would have been virtually impossible to withdraw my children from religious indoctrination in school.

But collective worship covers a wide range of activities. Most of them not religious

At my son’s school, worship is a core part of every assembly. Withdrawing him would have a major impact on him in terms of his participation in the life of the school, and would be very isolating.

Under the law, collective worship is expected to have a mainly Christian character at non-faith schools.

They have complained, bob. Nothing has changed.

Mind you, under the curriculum, Religious Observance at non-denom schools is strongly encouraged to be Christian. We shouldn’t be surprised that this attitude permeates throughout schools and their approach to children who are ‘other’.

It would have been virtually impossible to withdraw my children from religious indoctrination in school.

You've already expressed that this was because of a very religious headteacher.
Do you think it may have been different if there was a different headteacher?

JassyRadlett - I'm glad they have challenged this, and I hope it changes because it is not right.

I have never been in a school where children have been forced to partake in religious activities, or disadvantaged because of it. I have rarely seen prayers being carried out, or church trips except in RC schools. This is my experience of it, and I know this isn't the case everywhere, but it really should be. I would be fighting for change too.

namechangerbob - yes it would have been different I am sure with a different head.
I do know of a few other non denominational schools around who also deliver a large amount of indoctrination.

And that is protected in law.

Some pupils may be lucky enough to receive almost none, but that shouldn't be on the whim of the teaching staff and their personal views.