To not understand Masonic lodges

[Bearbehind]

Just been talking to a friends who's husband is a head honcho mason.

He's called the Grand Master or something equally ridiculous.

Apparently throughout a masons 'career' they get to fill in certain blanks in the book and only at the top level do you get to fill in all the blanks.

AIBU to think WTAF?

What is the point in this seemingly childish behaviour in grown men?

"you feel you’d be ‘foolish not to exploit nepotism’ shows you are not someone that I’d have a serious discussion with."

Why? If a friend told you about a job which suited you perfectly and said they'd give you a personal reference (they already work for the company) then would you turn it down? It's pure nepotism.

My husband was made a partner in his father's company and inherited it when FiL died. Nepotism!

My niece wanted experience in journalism before she went to uni. She wanted to confirm it's what she wanted to do. Our friend is the editor of the local paper so I called her up and my niece got a summer job.

Are you saying that none of those things should have happened? If so, why?

Are you saying that you wouldn't have done the same?

"Do you also think you’d be foolish not to exploit legal tax avoidance schemes?"

That's a big moral grey area. Tax evasion is illegal and wrong. I don't know where to draw the line between tax avoidance and minimising tax liability. I know it's to do with Parliament's (or the Law's) intentions but who are we to know the intentions.

I have ISAs. I have a small speech-writing company (loss making, actually) but 'it' rents office space in my home and other things which minimise tax liability. I think that's fine.

Do you pay more tax than you have to? Where do you draw the line between minimising and avoiding with regard to tax liability?

"Why on earth shouldn’t people who’s job it is to uphold the law be held to higher moral standards than those they presided over?"

2 things.

Firstly, it's you who made the assertion that they are (now changed to should) so you should prove they are or defend the position they should.

Secondly, moral standards mean fuck all. We have laws in this country not 'feelz'. It's nice because everyone's judged to the same standard. Everyone. If it's illegal then it's illegal. If it isn't then crack on. The very idea of a multi-tiered system where some people can do some things but others can't is surely the very thing you're arguing against. We are all held to the same legal standard. It's a bloody wonderful thing, too.

Have I misunderstood?

Proffesional bodies have codes of conduct and guidelines they are also expected to stick to.

If I was a shop assistant nobody is going to give two hoots if I’m photographed in my underwear at a sex party being pissed on by 12 blokes, but the average copper is going to have some questions asked about that

The very idea of a multi-tiered system where some people can do some things but others can't is surely the very thing you're arguing against

Yes exactly, people in powerful positions shouldn’t be corrupt and Freemasonry has in the past facilitated this. Therefore they should declare membership for full transparency. It wouldn’t be so important for a plumber because they don't wield power to judge others according to the law. They don’t have the power to potentially send icconcent people to prison. What’s so hard to understand? Corruption is against the law. It’s plain to see that a corrupt policeman would be judged more harshly than a corrupt person who isn’t a member of the police force. Both are wrong but the policeman will have also broken trust placed in them by the public to preside over them. That is what I mean when I say they ARE held to higher standards and SHOULD be.

I can honestly say I’ve never used personal connections for financial gain and you should probably let your kids/nieces whatever sort out their own work placements and careers. I think you are from a different world and a different age to me.

Also you’ve completely contradicted yourself. Moral standards mean fuck all because we have laws yet when it comes to tax law there’s a big moral ‘grey area’. Ok. I get it.

You mean that Freemansons should be singled out and a special list kept?

"you should probably let your kids/nieces whatever sort out their own work placements and careers."

Why? Niece wants experience; I facilitate it through a friend.

You didn't answer if you would take a job with a friend / employee recommending you.

"I think you are from a different world and a different age to me."

I'm 41. What's your point?

The Masons have a museum - my grandfather was one in South Africa and then when he moved joined a lodge here.
He was a master baker.

When he died we donated all his Masonic robes and other stuff to the museum

He was a very gentle, quiet and caring man - he was a member initially because that's what you did in SA and then to make friends and feel part of something when he moved.

I suspect there are complete dickheads in the masons as there are in many organisations but I suspect there are also more normal individuals who are members just because it means they are part of something.

@Fluffyears
Sorry but I disagree with you.
Our ndn was a Grand Master in the Masons every year on the 12th he Marched, singing their vile songs. His wife and kids following along at the back.
I know plenty Masons who celebrate the 12th.

They can be a member of both lodges. I have 4 family members who are masons and not one marches. The Orange March is run by the Orange Lodge. I assume the people you refer to were members of both but that is not true for all masons.

Nitrox. What I think is that if you work in the criminal justice system it should be mandatory to declare membership, not voluntary. This isn’t a whacky idea, because of the history of police corruption linked to freemasonry. You have refused to akowlege that there is a well documented history of this, as has David Staples whilst he’s been doing the media rounds. There’s been a home affairs select committee report on it, focusing in particular on the CJS. But I’m sure you think they’re conspiracy theorists too. And presumably the lodges know the names of members so there is actually a list. It’s really not a crazy idea. If there’s nothing to hide and nothing to gain why be secretive? How does any company or organisation tackle an image problem after numerous corruption scandals? They at the very least admit the problem.

Would I take a job if a friend had recommended me? If I’d applied officially and been to interview and been offered the job yes I probably would. I’d trust that I wouldn’t be given a job on their word alone and that I was suited to the position. We all live according to a moral code. That will vary between Individuals but in a society people will largely have the same fundamental code, which will be reflected in our laws. Everyday we make judgments on what’s acceptable moral behaviour. So I probably judge that that was technically slightly immoral but I’d be prepared to overlook that beacause of the benefit to me and the fact that it doesn’t impact the wider society in which I live.

If I was on a planning committee and someone I knew and liked privately put their case to me why x plan should be approved, and I acted upon their word due to loyalty rather than consider the true pros/cons of plan x, I would deem that as a step too far. It’s probably immoral by most people’s standards. But I think this is pretty far removed from the subject of this thread.

this thread has made me really curious about joining the Masons but I'm not rich!! Or influential....

@fluffyyears Many masons do march on the 12th singing offensive songs and walking behind banners that are meant to incite hatred. Look on google at the images - or go to NI or parts of Scotland. Their allegiance to the Orange Order is rock solid.

My mother was very scathing of the masons (my father's father was a mason and died telling a joke at a masonic hall dinner - the location is on his death certificate; quite a nice way to go actually). I think he used it just as part of his local connections in the 1920s. He left school at 12 (first job was awful - drowning puppies for a chemist for people who could not afford the vet; then sold horses and eventually helped sell houses - estate agent and valuer and auctioneer, became a councillor and justice of the peace (and a mason).

My mother's view and mine is it is a load of silly men, pushing up their trousers and wasting time they ought to be spending at home cleaning the floors and putting the babies to bed. She was not wrong. If they have got all that spare time they should be spending it with their families.

I would not ban it and I support the current greater openness of the masons.

I was once briefly dating a man who was in them and he sent me a photo - thankfully not of him naked but I was very amused to see it was a picture of a ceremonial chair of all things - perhaps they only join the masons if they are hopeless with women.

"My mother's view and mine is it is a load of silly men, pushing up their trousers and wasting time they ought to be spending at home cleaning the floors and putting the babies to bed. She was not wrong. If they have got all that spare time they should be spending it with their families."

hmm. I don't have kids. There's a women's masons group. Does it take up a lot of time or do people just enjoy it? (Whatever "it" is).

Have you ever been to any of their gatherings OP? I have. They're great fun. Stop flapping your gums about something you don't really know anything about 👌

@tapandgo i don’t need to google. I live in Scotland, my hometown is home to the Mother Lodge (Kilwinning number 0) and I can hand on heart say I have never seen masons marching. Just the orange bands. Out town had several of them every year and i never saw any masons, they marched right past my bedroom which faced the road.

Maybe our lodge doesn’t match! My father certainly never did. My grandfather and uncle at a different lodge never did, my other uncle in yet another town didn’t. I have never heard or experienced that!

I certainly would not abolish it but there is no way on earth most of us with young children particularly in couples where you both work full time and have babies and toddlers have the time for one of you do to out even a few evenings a month for any kind of hobby when there is child caring, putting children to bed, cleaning and all the rest to be done. The same applies to golf, going to the gym, cycling etc etc.

Sky had a good programme on recently - they let them into the lodge and some young man who had learned a lot of lines off by heart was practising them and a farmer who was rather old was very very happy his son was joining.

I think it's utterly weird a waste of time and laughable but I am sure people would laugh at aspect of all of our lives - we all differ. Presumably they have to keep it hidden because it's so ludicrous.

Look on google at the images

I can't find any could you link them please? I can find plenty of the orange order but not free masons.

Masons can not wear their regalia outside of the lodge without written permission from the Provincial Grand Master. They would also need written permission to march.

Top order of Orange Order (the blacks). Masonic regalia clearly on show.

The Orange Order was set up by a group of Freemasons, if my historic knowledge serves me right.

Ancient Sons Of King William banner clearly on display as is Masonic aprons.

Trying again

They are Orange order who are a Protestant fraternal

I believe that is King William of Orange.