To not understand Masonic lodges

[Bearbehind]

Just been talking to a friends who's husband is a head honcho mason.

He's called the Grand Master or something equally ridiculous.

Apparently throughout a masons 'career' they get to fill in certain blanks in the book and only at the top level do you get to fill in all the blanks.

AIBU to think WTAF?

What is the point in this seemingly childish behaviour in grown men?

But nobody expects me to declare my membership of the WI despite it being an old fashioned woman domantated club

Posters are just being obtuse now, the declaring it thing is not because it's a man's club, it's because it's a conflict of interest, which it is! And conflicts of interest should be declared.

comparing Masons to the WI, beekeepers, brownies and WMC - heard it all.
One wonders if some people have read the promises and oaths taken at the lodges, looked at what happens as masons move up the degrees and read accounts of corruption, conspiracy and collusion as reported in decent newspapers. It’s the reasons some professions prohibit membership or insist membership is declared. Nobody, with good reasons, gives a flying fig about members of the WI who were brownies who keep bees as a side line!

Ive read pretty much most of it, I’ve also attended a lodge oddly during a circumstance a woman wouldn’t normally be able to (a person being honoured was at that time dependant on my presence they died very soon after). And yes I read newspapers

"But nobody expects me to declare my membership of the WI despite it being an old fashioned woman domantated club"

I didn't think the WI was particularly powerful or influential. Also, your membership of it would not be a secret and could probably be found quite easily if you've been in the local paper at a WI event for example.

This thread's baffling in it's stupidity.

Membership of the Masons is not a secret.
It is not a de facto conflict of interest.
Freemasons are just a club. Conspiracy theories make the believer look like a moron.

You would be surprised gwen they have quite a significant political pull. Alledgedly but I’m just there for the jam.

The only people who would know I’m a member would be those who know you can’t be a speaker unless you are. In real life I’m a deeply secretive person so I’m incredibly careful about stuff so no names appearing in the local paper (my local paper won’t even print my name without checking with me first) and people do not really talk about me. I’m nice and people have realised that a few people who are not very nice may wish me harm.

There is a piece now on BBC Breakfast about Masonry.

I've seen quite a few times now, that threads here are stories there just after. Is it likely to be all coincidence?

Ok nitrox. I’m not sure you’ve actually read the thread. There has been a well documented history of corrupt police officers using the connections of freemasonry in the U.K. including putting Masonic connections above their moral duty to arrest serious criminals. Whether corruption in the police stems from freemasonry or whether it simply facilitates it is something no one will ever be able to answer. The two most famous cases are the Steven Lawrence investigation and Daniel Morgan murder. It’s not conspiricy theory, it’s just that it’s not that well reported and unless you’ve had personal dealings with it, which most people assume they wouldn’t, I wouldn’t expect most members of the public to be that interested.

I happen to think that it’s an organisation that will be kicked into the past fairly soon. I don’t think the police force is dominated by corruption as much as it was 20 years ago and I honestly think the world has moved on. It’s far harder to get away with corruption now for one and younger people just don’t have that mentality, we live in a far more open equal opportunity society. But people are still going to be suspicious of freemasonry if they’re old enough to remember the really bad days of met (and other forces) corruption.

All that said some people are clearly still concerned about it within the police force. Are they all conspiracy theorist too?

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/02/secret-handshake-police-freemasons

Yea. I’m not sure this guy on bbc breakfast is doing them to many favours...

‘It not a secret handshake but I can’t show you because we all promised to our gods not to show anyone’ . The mind boggles.

To be fair, the presenters were asking him for about the third time about the handshake. The first time he told them where it could be seen online. The second time, he declined to show it because he as an individual had promised not to and he intended to keep his word, and reminded the information was readily available online. They then asked him again - which I think was unpleasant of them - and asked him (twice) to whom he had made the promises. It was only then that he described the faith aspect of masons - something which it pretty widely known, isn't it?

But he’d also contradicted himself by saying they were open, people should ask about them and find out about them and come to lodges. Obviously the things people want to know about are things that are perceived to be ‘secret’ such as the handshake. So why invite questioning if you’re not prepared to answer? Freemasonry is supposed to be secular, so I’m not sure what the whole ‘promising to god’ thing means. Personally I’m not bothered by things like secret handshakes. As a P.P eloquently put it, it’s more the fact that it’s a society of secrets rather than a secret society. I think they like to ham up all the ritual/handshake stuff to make out that that’s the aspect people have problems with. It’s not, it’s the potential for nepotism/corruption.

I read the thread.

The Grauniad is full of conspiracy theories. I didn't bother following the link to their awful paper.

"Freemasonry is supposed to be secular, so I’m not sure what the whole ‘promising to god’ thing means."

Is it? Not according to their own website.

"Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It requires of its members a belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult, but advocates no sectarian faith or practice."

"It’s not, it’s the potential for nepotism/corruption."

There's potential corruption everywhere and nepotism too. DH and I both belong to the G&C club and local Yacht Club and our children go to an expensive indy school. Lots of potential for corruption and nepotism there. In fact, wouldn't you be foolish not to take advantage of the nepotism?

You clearly have a 'thing' about the Masons but there's no logic in wanting Masonic membership declared but not other memberships. Conflicts of interest are (or should) be declared but this isn't one of them.

What is it that you think makes the Masons stand out? Because of your anecdote?

Nitrox you’re simply ingnroing evidence that doesn’t suit your agenda. It’s not anecdote. Masons stand out because in the past there has been corruption scandals often involving members of the same lodge in a way that there hasn’t for say, the local yacht club or bee keeping society. It’s also on a much larger scale. I don’t think all masons need to tell the world they’re masons. I’ve never said that. I think people in certain professions, certainly in the justice system, need to be fully transparent about membership even if just to allay any suspicion that might fall upon their conduct at any point in their career. Which school you attended and if you got to a yacht club is not something that’s secret, why should membership of freemasonry be different?

@ParkHeadParadise the masons don’t match in July. That is the Orange lodge, a separate organisation.

"Which school you attended and if you got to a yacht club is not something that’s secret, why should membership of freemasonry be different?"

Masonry membership isn't secret. My father and grandfather both wore their rings. My father was an MP. Should he have declared his membership (although it wasn't a secret anyway)? He was open and tried to introduce anyone who'd listen.

What do you even mean by 'declare'? At the start of a trial (for example) a judge must declare any potential conflicts of interest and can recuse themselves or be objected to. Should there be a "Mason List" somewhere?

Yes I think there should actually. There would be lists for any other club membership wouldn’t there? It’s not just about judges. If you work for the police or CPS you are held to a higher moral standard than the rest of society and nothing at all should compromise that. In our case the judge stood up to corruption and exposed it in court. He was a truly just man. Sadly, a few months later he died in an accident. Now that really is fodder for Conspiracy theorists. But you are just another poster who’s dad was a mason so yet again, wood and trees.

Have you seen this:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/freemasons-we-have-been-undeservedly-stigmatised

Masons complaining they've being unfairly treated.

I suppose they do look like they kind of wear skirts. (sorry, flippancy)

AuntieStella

There is a piece now on BBC Breakfast about Masonry.

I've seen quite a few times now, that threads here are stories there just after. Is it likely to be all coincidence?

I was coming on to say the exact same thing!
I have also seen this happen with a few other threads.

It wouldn’t be a bbc writer posting threads for different angles and extra content surely

Two of my friends' dads are in the Masons. One joined around 1970 as it was the only way for a working-class lad to make a career as an accountant. Friend went to the dinners once she was a teenager as her mum was bored of them. Dad made a few friends and ignored most of the rest of it beyond acquiring new clients - he is a lovely bloke.
Other dad was a wholesaler supplying food items to shops, and was told by competitors that they'd put him out of business one way or another. It was suggested that becoming a Mason might help, and indeed the threats went away. Again he stayed for the contacts because it was a place to talk about work.
Though by 1990 another friend wanted to do an A-level history research project on the Masons, using above chaps, recent books, and a teacher as sources - the teacher's husband was senior enough that his wife was permitted to join also.
The exam board wrote back saying the topic was 'inappropriate' so she had to start an entirely new project.
And then I worked for the police and an Inspector reported corruption among his colleagues. The result was he was fired. I'm told it was because he wasn't a Mason, which is a crying shame if true, as he was an excellent cop.

I have found that if I've been in a meeting with an obnoxious bloke, then shaking their hand and pressing the 3rd knuckle Mason-style unnerves a lot of them and often the confusion makes them start treating me with respect (I'm female so obviously not a Mason!)

PMSL- do men have different nipples to women? How do they differentiate between flat chested women and man boobs?

I think a woman dressed up as a man once and tried to gain admission,,hense the bare your breasts thing

"If you work for the police or CPS you are held to a higher moral standard than the rest of society"

Haha. Really? Tell me more.

The fact you think there should be an official list of Masons shows you really aren't someone to have a proper discussion with.

Nitrox the fact that you feel you’d be ‘foolish not to exploit nepotism’ shows you are not someone that I’d have a serious discussion with. Do you also think you’d be foolish not to exploit legal tax avoidance schemes? You can justify any behaviour by using that as an argument but it doesn’t make it right. Why on earth shouldn’t people who’s job it is to uphold the law be held to higher moral standards than those they presided over? Luckily the world is changing yet people like you remain firmly in the 20th century.