Is this punishment twice over?

[Notss]

Hi all,

Another school related disagreement between me and DH.

Basically school have a disco on the last day before half term that DS2 would like to go to. But the entry requirements are that children should have received any “red cards” for behaviour.

DS2 has received a couple red cards since Christmas (And was grounded for each) and therefore can’t go, I’m fully on board with this but DH thinks it’s wrong and is punshining twice for the same offence?

Who is BU?

Thanks!

I think your DH is BU Tbh. My son's high school runs a rewards day out each year. The conditions are they have to have a certain number of positive behaviour points and to not have been placed in isolation at any point in the previous school year. The kids are aware of this so k is that if they behave badly enough to be punished with isolation then they also lose their place on the trip.
At the end of the day it's the school rules and he should have been aware of it.

If a child who gets two red cards gets to go to the disco, how fair is that on the kids who behave. Won't they be thinking "what's the point"? As the kids who are naughty, get to go anyway.

Because surely the whole point of the red card system is that they have been already punished.....

Red cards at DS school include fightings swearing damaging property stealing etc

Yellow cards are for minor not listening being rude to a teacher type offences

Anything else is a verbal warning

I think it rests on - did your son know that red cards would lead to exclusion from the disco? If so this isn't a surprise to him and he already knew he wouldn't be going

A red card isn’t a punishment. It’s a way of telling a child their behaviour is unacceptable. The punishment is not going to the disco!

In fairness we need to know a lot more about the red card system and age of the child. A child, who is automatically excluded from the disco for one red card has no incentive to redeem themselves. By that, I don’t mean suck it up for a couple of weeks to manipulate the system.

Assuming it’s secondary school. If a child can get a red card say for fighting when they were attacked and were not fighting, rather fending off their attacker or because they didn’t do their homework, that for example would be unfair. If a child has to be consistently disruptive to get one, have had a series of detentions or warnings, that’s different.

If them get a red card they don't get stickers at the end of the week. Certificates at half term. Small prize end of term and end of year treat.

Not giving a reward is not a punishment. Those rewards are being given to to kids who've met specific criteria as a recognition for good behaviour.

Working hard and doing as asked is too often ignored, it's right that those kids get stickers/certificates/trips. It would not be right to reward the kids who picked on the others or spoilt their learning.

Sanction should be quick, they should be tied to behaviour and then there should be a fresh start. Rewards, OTOH, should recognise long term effort, for all abilities.

When you get a red card what incentive is there to behave if the incentive taken away

When you get a red card what incentive is there to behave if the incentive taken away

I've never heard of a rewards system that stops giving rewards after one sanction.

The point is that children should 'behave' because that's what they have been brought up to do. It takes years of reinforcement to create a child who is kind and respectful of others.

The incentives are not payment for good behaviour, they could never be enough to 'make' kids behave well. The structures are there to reinforce positive behaviour without directly having to nag.

If you start saying that if you remove a treat where is the incentive to behave, where does that end? You can turn that around: if you know you will always be given a treat, what is the incentive to behave?
Mess around, do what you like for a term,and then be good in the last week and all will be well because you can earn it back again.
Whereas, miss the treat that others have earned because of consistent good behaviour. Listen to them all talk about it. Feel crap. Clean slate next termites half term or whatever and you remember how rubbish it felt to be excluded from the fun event. So you behave, and get the treat.

Otherwise you might just as well say what is the incentive to behave well for any child? Someone behaves really badly but still gets to do all the fun stuff. So why bother behaving well 99% of the time? The disco is the reward for not doing anything that results in a red card.

What I meant @Pengggwn was that there was a direct, immediate sanction associated with a red card. Eg being sent to another’s class or being kept in at play.

That would make much more sense - and tie in to what the OP’s DH was saying about double punishment.

I didn’t think it meant they got flashed a red card and that was literally it.

If a red card means no disco, that’s ludicrous because it’s too far from the “crime” and what if the teacher hasn’t made the right call (yes it happens)? Then you have a punishment which might be weeks away and hasn’t no meaning plus breeds resentment.

Punishment should be immediate as far as possible and be inherently fair.

Termites? What kind of reward is that?? Term or half term, it should have read...

Ha - most law abiding adults behave because they have a sense of right or wrong. You do something positive, you get rewarded.

You do something negative, there’s usually a natural consequence. Saying no disco which isn’t weeks away isn’t immediate and is just punitive, especially if the child has already been punished. Which is key for me - how many times do you have to punish for the same thing? Comparing it to prison is ridiculousness.

I don’t link treats to behaviour in my house with my dcs unless the bad behaviour Is directly associated with the problem. Eg arguing over TV = no TV. Eg haven’t done homework, then no games etc until it’s done because there’s a limit on the time available.

The reason why I don’t is because I see parents who have to escalate their sanctions it’s become a power game. It isn’t - I have more power being the parent. And when they hit teens, then it kind of becomes even harder. We have clear rules and it works for us. But I also treat my kids because it’s nice thing to do, not because they’re “good”.

Hi everyone!

Thanks for all your replies, I didn’t expect this many; and it’s intresting to see the split of opinion.

Since you asked for details:
DS2 is year 7. The school have a event like this at the end of every half term, sometimes it’s an afternoon of lessons to watch a film and sometimes it’s an after school event like this ‘valentine disco’. DS2 went to both events before Christmas.

The school gives red cards for serious offences and repeated small ones. Both red cards were for talking over a teacher (different ones) so getting a yellow and then doing it again. In both cases I grounded him for the weekend; and he received an afterschool 1 hour detention on a Friday.

DH and I both see the detention and grounding as one punishment. The debate is that I see the disco as an extra reward, so I think DS2 not goingniw fair enough; but DH thinks it’s a second punishment and not fair.

Thanks for all your replies so far!

What did he do to get the red cards? Red cards are major deals in the schools in my area (bullying/deliberate damage/drinking on school premises).

From what I see the disco is a reward for those who behave. I don't think your son is being punished twice, he just doesn't meet the criteria for the disco.

It like someone being convicted of a drug offence and a couple of years later they cannot get a Visa to work in the US. Technically, the court is not punishing them for the drug offence by rejecting their visa application, they simply to not meet the criteria of the good character part of the visa.

Believeitornot - I'd say the distance from the crime to the disco point depends on age. If he's 4yo, then absolutely, I'd agree with you. But the Op talks about grounding him which to me suggests a much older child? 10 or 11. In which case he will be more than capable of remembering why he's not allowed to the disco.
Let's face it, in a couple of years he will be starting to do work which is the basis of GCSEs. Mess around then, and the implications could follow him for the rest of his life, not just involve missing out on some dancing. Not a bad lesson to learn at this point that sanctions may take a while to come round.
Also, it comes back to what he's done, doesn't it? Red cards would seem to me to be either repeatedly doing something you've been told not to, in which case there were plenty of chances to earn back your place at the disco, and part of that would have been bing sent to other classrooms, missing playtime etc. Those would be, to me, more 'yellow card' punishments. Or doing something fairly major, like violence. Which needs to be cracked down on, and keeping them in at playtime doesn't cut it.

But this is all guess work because we don't know what he did, or what the school did prior to the red card.

But this is all guess work because we don't know what he did, or what the school did prior to the red card

Very true, I agree. I’m thinking about it from my dcs who seen primary school age.

If the OP knew it was no disco, depending on the crime, there might be have no need to ground as well.

Cross post with OP.
So he had his chance to still go to the disco by paying attention to the yellow card. Fair enough. He failed to earn the reward but he'll get another chance next half term and maybe remember that it felt rubbish not to be going this time round. It's not a major crime but I think he's plenty old enough for the whole 'distance from the crime' thing not to be an issue.
I'm with you Op. A level of behaviour is expected to be allowed to go to the disco. He was given a warning that he was not on the right track and failed to heed it. Slate clean next half term. Hopefully, lesson learnt.

It doesn’t really matter what either of you think. The school has set the requirement of no red cards to be allowed to go to the disco. Ds has 2!

Fwiw, I think it’s a bit over kill to be grounded, have detention and not be allowed to the event!

I really should have read my message again!

*afternoon off lessons
*not going is fair enough.

Also to clarify. There are no punishments for a yellow card - just that two in one lesson like DS2 or three in one week results in a red. Instant reds are for violence, swearing, vandalism, being late to lesson and not bringing in PE kit or homework.

Ah cross posted with OP.

I think the grounding was therefore over the top as it is in addition. I’d have left it to the School to deal with and remind DS that he needs to follow the rule (even though I think the rule is overkill given the “crime, but I would never tell my DCs that)

Two in one lesson - so by the next lesson it really is a clean slate. If he knows that's the policy he brought it on himself!