To think it's a bit weird to expect a guy to make the first move and pay for dinner

[Skustew]

If you post memes on bookface talking about treating both genders equally?

I understand some people are a bit old school and their idea of how men should treat a woman comes from the 50s. But why can't some people see the double standards they have?

Just for the record, not every woman WANTS to get married.

There are plenty of us who are unmarried with children through choice, not because our partners don't think we're worth the effort

men who won't even propose to them or share finances etc

Why do men have to propose it? I can't even believe you wrote that. My husband proposed it, I declined. My choice. We have been together 28 years. A woman can propose it to. We can also decline it

Really. We have a choice. We don't need to wait for men to propose shit, we don't need to abide by their expectation on whether we work or not. Really. We moved on. We are no longer a gender who needs to be paid for and live according to the mans rules. We can have successful relationships on our terms too. Mutual agreement, equality. These are real things.

I would be a lot more weary about men going dutch on the first day, spending weekends away with friends whilst their wife stays home with the newborn baby and all the stories you read about on this forum.

I mean, the reality is that any 'kind' of man can be a twat - there are plenty of self-proclaimed feminist men who turn out to be anything but. In my own life experience, though - which obviously is a far from scientific sample - men who consider their partners to be friends and equals are far more likely to pull their weight than men who treat them as 'princesses', or as delicate little flowers to be protected. The problem with a man who puts you on a pedestal is that you're going to fall off it eventually - and he's not always very nice when you do.

when you conveniently forget that the woman who just had a baby is the one who needs to stay home to recover from the birth

Some do yes, but I know no man who went off on a lads weekend whilst his wife stayed home recovering from thr birth. I'm sure they exist, but I do not think they are as prevalent as you seem to be indicating.

We can have successful relationships on our terms too. Mutual agreement, equality. These are real things.

exactly. And we have a choice to want to be invited for diner and not be treated like a mate on our first date. Nothing wrong with that. Some posters just do not agree that others can make the choice of not making the first step or going dutch on the first date.

Being offended because a man would invite you would be a step too far.

I'm sure they exist, but I do not think they are as prevalent as you seem to be indicating.
I have never met one in real life, but reading this forum seems to show that there are many more than I thought! I clearly spend too much time on MN

To be fair, I wouldn't have gone out with a man who couldn't afford to pay for diner at least once.

That would never cross my mind with a woman. I'd be interested in her, not her means.
I understand people's circumstances are not always a reflection of them.
If she could NEVER pay for a thing, it would not bother me, as long as I knew that if she could pay, she would.

‘When it comes to dating, of course the man pays. The man should pay, the woman has control over whether the date takes place and whether it leads on to anything. This is exactly what feminism means - the woman has power and control, the man does not‘ 😱😱😱

How is paying for yourself being treated like a mate?! What an odd train of thought.

I have no issue with women preferring to be asked on a date. Or appreciating a man offering to pay.

I do find it disappointing however that some adult women are completely unwilling to make the first move ever, considering it is always the mans job to do so, or that a man should always pay as a sign he values their company...

To be fair, I wouldn't have gone out with a man who couldn't afford to pay for diner at least once

How do you know? Do you ask to see their bank statements before uou agree to a date? Do you ask them in advance if they shall pay before agreeing to go?

I might be tempted to present someone with a dictionary over dinner so she could learn how to spell it.

I might be tempted to present someone with a dictionary over dinner so she could learn how to spell it.
Is that for me?

yes! lol. Wasn't meant to offend, just my sense of humour!

"If a man can't even find it within himself to make an effort in the first date - what the hell will he be like 10 years into the future?
I bet women who are left high and dry by CM- dodging DHs, or men who won't even propose to them or share finances etc - would probably, in retrospect, see that the signs were there at the outset - i.e. no effort, initiative, self-respect or manners."

In my experience men who turn out to be shits go to extreme lengths to cover themselves, often until the Woman is pregnant. Likewise so do abusive Men.

As i said in a pp, i assume that I will pay for myself.

"I do find it disappointing however that some adult women are completely unwilling to make the first move ever,"

As said my someone else, that can be about liking confident Men. I would never make the first move, I've done it twice and I think some Men will piss take thinking you are desperate.

Bluntness, I think your experience are, as anyone's is, from the circles that you mix in. Coming from an area were the LP rate is very high, mine are completely different. My area and an awful lot of people that I encounter, are stuck in a time warp.

Velvert you'd be "bored shitless" with children all day. Which is fine, luckily those that provided childcare and teaching aren't.
Working makes you somewhat financially independent, but not necessarily personally independent.

I'm (at 50) never going to live with someone again. I'm independent in every sense, extremely confident and I like Men who have the confidence to ask me out. We could also get there mutually, but having done it twice, i won't ever make the first move again, not even on OLD.

I am not offended, I didn't start learning English until quite late and I am still learning. In real life I had comments about my accent and my skin colour. It says more about people mentioning it than it says about me.

I don't have many excuses for the typos in my posts.

Not to worry. It was only a quip!
I have loads of excuses for my typos - I have a large collection of them, due to my large number of mistakes.

Bluntness - there are always women on MN with separate finances, DP's who "help them out" financially (if they're lucky) and who have no interest in marrying them or giving any security /provision for the mother of their DC. There are shockingly, women who return to work sooner than they are ready and then are solely responsible for paying for the nursery care!! It's utterly depressing and I can't see the point in living with a man like this.

And no, I would not have wanted to propose to my DH - why would I? I don't care if it's PC or not.

My point is that old-fashion men with old-fashion manners will be the ones who find it natural to share the work and take care of their family and not let their partner deal with everything at home.

survey? I bet there is no data on the difference between men paying on the first date and not.

Men and women are different, sure, but this particular difference (men expecting to pay and ask out) is about something that is wrong more deeply. That expectation comes from women being seen as weaker and of course traditionally women had less economic power. That's changing. And for the good.

I'm not disputing that women end up in terrible situations with abusive selfish men, I simply do not understand how refusing to pay for yourself on a date prevents this happening. This thread is about our expectations as women. It's not about men. It's about what we as women expect

And many many of these women who end up in awful situations will tell you it never started that way. You demanding to be paid for on dates, will not dictate how a man decides to behave when a relationship develops and changes.

And the whole women being forced to return to work thing or the child care thing . Surely this is something that's discussed in advance before we as women make an informed decision on whether we shall conceive or not.

Birds, I don't quite get what you mean by personally independent? In reality unless any of us live a Good Life type existence, growing your food, weaving clothes from the fleece of sheep, we're all dependent on others to an extent. I've had no family since my early 20s so I've never had anyone in that sense either. I've earned my own money and paid for what I need. I do things myself, if I can't do them I pay some one to do it for me, or I do without.

I feel I'm an equal to men, and I wouldn't expect them to do anything I wasn't prepared to do myself. Including ask someone out. I have asked out/ made the first move with pretty much every man I've been in a relationship with. If I hadn't I would still be single.

I also don't see if you are interested in getting married, which I'm not, why a woman can't propose.

"Birds, I don't quite get what you mean by personally independent?"

Emotionally and physically. It's being made out as though Women who choose to SAH are "little Women who rely on Men", when often they just aren't the ones carrying out paid work.

There really hasn't been the need for the put downs and assumptions, every attack against Women has come from the Women that consider themselves "independent and Confident", confident people don't rubbish the choices of others.

It's interesting. If you look at it from the other side. What do we tell men on dates by our behaviour?

Offer to pay half = I see us as equal. This is how I have relationships.
Does not offer to pay half, and would be unhappy if a man didn't pay = I expect you to provide for me. This is how I have relationships.

If David Attenborough did a documentary on this, he'd be mocking the traditional mating rituals we go through. 'The man extolls his masculinity with his wallet', 'the female seeking a partner, sees this as an appropriate gesture before mating' etc.

It's madness.

If you like someone, you tell them. If you have money in your pocket and like to give, you'll pay for someone, and if you don't, they will pay for you.

It's little wonder so many relationships fail when the 'rituals' and 'expectations' are given so much prevalence. We're so often told that relationships break down (in part) due to communication problems, and yet we're starting out in the premise that a woman shouldn't ask a man out (even though she wants to further the relationship?). That's a lack of open communication right there!

I haven't rubbished the choices of others. I've simply said that it's not for me to stay at home (it isn't, and is quite alien to me as all the women on my family have always worked) and that it's important to have financial independence which it is. I'm pretty much physically and emotionally independent too for reaspns previously stated.

The snippy comments have been mostly from those who think men should pay/ ask.

And I don't see there's anything lacking in confidence about asserting my position and reasoning but I'm certain enough of my own views that I don't need validation.

BrilliantMistake - yes they are "dating rituals" but I think they persist because most people (male and female) prefer it that way.