Alfie Evans

[IcySlippy]

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/alfie-evans-parents-plead-sons-14231597

Anyone following this?

Do these people realise you can't just make threats of murder etc on the internet they could end up in serious trouble.

Surely the police have got to get involved if people are making 'threats to kill'?

So the plan to bombard the police might be their own downfall.

Someone has just suggested that they just grab him and hide him in a bag. They are beyond comprehension

Omg that is just bizarre and poor Alfie if anyone tried to do that, not that they'd get very far.

Someone now has tagged Rihanna on Instagram, she is friends with Prince Harry and will hopefully let him know what's happening...

If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny. I can't believe human evolution has ended up in this particular cul-de-sac with some members of the species. How do they exist on a day to day basis with real decisions to make? I am fascinated in a way and yet horrified in parallel.

The father has just posted on fb that he’ll instruct his lawyers to privately prosecute any doctors who are involved in his son’s death.

Just grabbing him and making a run for it fits their narrative though: that the child is being held hostage by the hospital and that given the chance he will recover.

While it was dreadful, and probably criminal, to see the end of life procedure published on FB, it does look as though the courts have attempted to thoroughly prepare the parents for what will happen. Even the language was clear, plain English.

The parents may not be engaging with professional advice, but they can't argue that they weren't well prepared.

I was on an ante-natal ward with a woman who simply could not comprehend the fact that, since she was pregnant, she couldn't necessarily expect to keep shouting and get what she wants if it conflicted with the welfare of her baby. She had no hesitation in smoking as much as she wanted, and really could not understand why she could not dictate when the baby would be born. Eventually they did induce her and someone in labour at the same time said the language had to be heard to be believed; it appeared that it was more in anger than in pain, because again she could not understand why the midwives would not give in to her demands that the baby be removed immediately. Ultimately they performed a Caesarian because she was getting completely hysterical and putting herself and the baby in danger.

Current events always remind me of her. There seems to be a mindset that simply cannot comprehend that you cannot have what you want just by shouting about it, or that sometimes there are forces which no-one can control, or that as a parent you need to put your child's benefit first. And the reaction when met with things you cannot control is the sort of tantrum we're seeing on the AA page.

Efrig just saw that.. I know he's hurting and will for a long time but seriously someone take him away from any social media! How is any of this helping its just stirring more and more trouble.

Are you for real he’s losing his baby he’s sees life in Alfie he has evidence he responds to things he is not 100% brain dead there are other kids kept alive on a ventilator at home why is his not. You obviously don’t have kids otherwise you wouldn’t respond this way.

So he is spending what is possibly the last night of his sons' life writing stuff like that on FB? I hope the poor mum is with Alfie and people caring for her.

The father has just posted on fb that he’ll instruct his lawyers to privately prosecute any doctors who are involved in his son’s death

The vast majority of lawyers will refuse; I rather doubt that even the Christian Legal Association will go along with that one.

We have today petitioned Her Majesty the Queen about Alfie’s situation, and will do as we promised. We will do whatever it takes to defend Alfie’s life; and we will do that within the law. We must not and will not disrupt the normal work of the Hospital. We will clear the way for the traffic to and from Alder Hey. Its staff shall continue to go about their normal business, and unless they attempt to harm Alfie, they have nothing to fear.

The High Court has ordered that the identities of people involved in Alfie’s treatment and his death must not be published. We will respect that.

But if my son dies now, I will instruct lawyers to start private prosecution of every single person who helps to make that happen.

Remember it is not good enough, in law or in conscience, to say that you simply followed orders.

There is a world of difference between giving up hopeless efforts to save life and taking active steps to bring about death.

You say that to withdraw life support from a sick child is a humane medical act – I say it is murder.

You say that using force to prevent me from trying to save his life is no more than upholding the law – I say it is murder.

You say you are acting in the best interests of the child. Perhaps King Herod used that phrase, too.

I will not allow you to kill my son just because a bunch of smug lawyers in London has concluded this would be good for him.

If you make my son die tomorrow, you will face justice from a jury of your twelve countrymen in this word, and a terrible judgement of God in the world to come.

That’s just been posted by TE

"FlyingBird

In the official withdrawal of care plan that TE posted today, he didn't actually redact one of the times mentioned even though that info was specifically blocked from being reported hmm

He's blacked out the time the withdrawal is due to start, from what I can see, but there's clearly another time stated further down on which the next part of the process will happen. So it's v easy to guess at roughly what time Alfie would die going by that."

"Ollivander84

They don't seem to see that life support is = when removed he will die
Whether he's given drugs or not. And midazolam is only used to murder. Funnily I've had it twice and I'm still alive, and I would much rather have that than be struggling off life support with no intervention.."

Just a couple of points here, but withdrawal of life support isn't all that neat and tidy. The speed at which a patient will succumb to their illness will depend on what that illness is, and the reason for their life-supportive measures being in place.

If someone has life-threateningly low blood pressure and pneumonia, then yes, the likelihood is that as soon as you withdraw the vasopressors that maintain their blood pressure at a level that will perfuse their major organs, and withdraw the ventilation that forces air into the lungs and blows off the CO2 waste gases, that patient will die. However, if a patient is fairly healthy, biologically, but requires supportive measures due to poor neurological function, they have preserved respiratory function. The respiratory centre is in the brain stem, which is the very lowest area of the brain above the spine. Even with terrible brain damage, people can have an intact brain stem, which is why patients who are completely unresponsive sometimes have brain-stem death testing, to establish whether they are brain-stem dead, or alive.

Secondly, we can't 'terminate life', 'kill' or 'off' patients. We can:
-withdraw therapy that is judged to be of no benefit to the patient, or to be harmful to the patient, even if that withdrawal will lead to their death.
-withhold therapy that is judged to be of no benefit, or where the distress, pain or suffering caused by the therapy is deemed to be not in the best interests of the patient, even if there is a slim chance that the therapy may work.
-set a 'ceiling of care' for a patient, on the basis of what is in their best interests, at which treatment will not further escalate.

That means that the child in question would not be given a drug that would stop him from breathing when ventilation was withdrawn, and if ventilation is being given with a paralysing agent, that would be weaned off before he was moved off of ventilation.

Pessismistic do you think that the best clinical staff in the world are doing this for fun? I have children, my daughter has recently been an in-patient at GOSH and I cannot imagine challenging them continuously on their views and advice. Just why would they not want to help Alfie? What would be their motive not to?

Pessimistic, the trouble is that with the best will in the world the evidence he sees does not show what he thinks it does. Unfortunately what is shown on the videos is simply movement generated by seizures and primitive brain stem reflexes. Other children kept alive on a ventilator are not dependent on intensive care, are not having seizures all the time, and do not have conditions that have destroyed their brains.

I really can't tell with this latest rambling from the father whether he genuinely believes the crap he's posting or if he's smarter than he looks and he knows what's going to get him attention from the barmy army. He is revelling in his questionable celebrity.

If the date is to be believed, he should want to spend every moment he can with his son. Posting on Facebook for likes and shares should not be the priority of a man in that situation.

This is scarier than Charlie Gard. His parents at least accepted in the end that he was too poorly to survive, even if they haven't yet understood or accepted why that is. I can't see the father in this case ever doing that.

It is tragic why not stop reading about it and making remark. is it your child getting switched off will you be arranging the funeral? This baby is truly loved by his father who will not give up who are you to judge him unless your in his situation. You make me sick.

I hope everything goes smoothly at the court appointed time/date. I hope Alfie's parents stay by their son's bedside and the AA do no harm.

Pessismistic you still haven't answered why the doctors at AH would not want to keep Alfie alive? What would their motive be for not doing so?

Pessimistic.. Patients on long term ventilation at home, are different to Alfie. This can only work if they still have a functioning brain, and it something like paraplegia that stops them breathing. Or muscular degenerative conditions.
Alfie has no brain and therefore the ventilation is not about just doing the breathing as in other cases etc, it genuinely is his life support.
It cannot support him much longer, the rest of his body doesn't work, in other home ventilation cases the brain can still make the heart pump and kidneys filter etc ("sorry basic explanation) in alfies case this is stopping as the last bit of his brain deteriorates.

It is impossibly sad but sometimes medics cannot do anymore.
We don't keep people on life support indefinitely once they are brain dead.
It doesn't make any sense

He believes his son has a fighting chance why is that so bad? that he cares enough to try and save him why don’t you all stop reading about it if it bothers you so much he’s the one who will have to sit there when he takes his last breath and he is the one who has to bury him not you lot judging and mocking him.

Pessimistic, why is the ultimate insult from you lot 'you obviously don't have kid's, because utilising your womb/sperm confers you with special mummy/daddy insights.

And if you really believe that, don't waste your time with the pope, because, well, work it out for yourself.

when you were 6 it was someone stealing your toy or making you go to bed when you wanted to stay up later,

Yes, but you begin to learn that you can't always have everything your own way, and as you grow up you encounter more things that aren't fair, such as being told off at school for something that wasn't your fault, or your team losing because someone cheated, or the girl/boy you like going out with someone else. So by the time you reach adulthood you've got those experiences behind you, and it's not a total shock when you encounter unfairness in adult life.

All of the professions you mentioned would mean reporting to someone in the chain of management, so there are consequences if you don’t act responsibly

Indeed, but they start with the expectation that they will behave responsibly.