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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Alfie Evans

999 replies

IcySlippy · 01/02/2018 11:50

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/alfie-evans-parents-plead-sons-14231597

Anyone following this?

OP posts:
EB123 · 22/04/2018 12:39

So i had a quick look at the army group, they are messaging Jacob Rees-Mog, Jacqueline Jossa and Danny Dyer. They also seem to think they are medical experts, it must be winding Tom up more, those ill informed comments about drugs and the hospital wanting A to die.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/04/2018 12:40

Another thought about the uploading and then removal of certain documents / suggestions on FB: does it not occur to these posters that security people will also be reading ... and that for all I know they can probably access "private" messages too?

Then again, I wonder if anything occurs to them, beyond their fevered imaginings Hmm

user1471450935 · 22/04/2018 12:44

As a person who sat in 3 meetings to decide the future of my 20 year old brain dead brother, car accident brain stem injury, I can say I feel compete compassion for Alfie's parents. No can ever understand the feelings you go through, my Mum, Dad and I (I was 21) took the decision at the third meeting 24 hours after the first, we also donated his organs.
It wrecked my family, my Dad committed suicide 16 months later, couldn't cope with loss, I still feel guilty 27 years later, had to have 12 sessions of counselling, last year, and my Mum never forgive for living until she died, her favourite put downs being
The wrong son lived or you couldn't wait to convince us to turn your brother's machine off.
Grief is awful, PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ALFIE'S PARENTS, until you have walked a day in their shoes, I have and don't every want to return to it, thank you, we had the choice to make, they have had that choice removed. SO SAD.

Finally, many Doctors and Consultants, may be great medics, but are shit communicators and worse at sympathy, the senior consultant in first meeting, came in said your son/brother is dead, no explanation, and you have to turn machine off, you are wasting a ICU bed and my staff's time.
Third one, spent 25 minutes explaining and taking questions, we agreed to turn it off after him, after first meeting we all looked at each other and said no.
So don't always presume Doctors/Consultants are automatically good at their roles.

Also believe those parents and Charlie's parents will never fully recovery. It isn't medic staff who live 24/7 with the what ifs and guilt. Never judge bereaved parents.

I have never told anyone of those meetings in the 28 years since, over sense of guilt and the sense I also contributed to my Dad's suicide.

elevent · 22/04/2018 12:48

I'm so sorry User, that must have been (still is) so difficult.

cocoabutterformula · 22/04/2018 12:53

User I am so so sorry.

Handsoffmysweets · 22/04/2018 12:53

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request

user1471450935 · 22/04/2018 13:28

Thank you.
Not sure strong, you aren't really thinking straight, you are on autopilot.
Sadly in this case they are no winners, all lose.
No words can every explain what Alfie's parent will be experiencing right now. Time is a healer.
I think these types of cases need some form of new arbitration system, instead of court cases. I believe that was a recommendation, in the final Charlie Gard judgement. Though I haven't read all the court papers, I find it too painful.
Finally my thoughts go to all who have and will have to make that awful decision, you do it for love, I believe, but it doesn't always feel that way.
Flowers especially to Alfie and his heartbroken parents, and to anyone else who have been through similar.
Sorry to derail, just want to say don't judge too harshly please.

derxa · 22/04/2018 13:31

user Flowers I have experienced something very similar. The survivor's guilt will stay with me for the rest of my life. I agree 100% with what you said.

Efrig · 22/04/2018 13:45

I think that if there are many more of these cases, the nhs will end up closing these specialist childrens hospitals due to legal costs and lack of staff.

Saucery · 22/04/2018 14:32

I think legal steps will be taken to stop the social media frenzy. Possibly much earlier on in the process so it doesn’t reach the point it has got to here.

user1471450935 · 22/04/2018 15:09

derxa
Flowers to you, so sorry that you had to go through similar

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 22/04/2018 17:31

Alfie’s Army and the good people of Liverpool will not sit back and allow this to happen. I can not stop them from now joining up and demonstrating outside alder hey again to do their utmost to defend Alfie against all those who prepare to take his life in the next hours/days

Part of the Post/petition to the Queen... Not sure what she's meant to do. Sadly getting more and more desperate. The message at the end though...

confusedlittleone · 22/04/2018 17:52

^*To Her Majesty in Parliament:
We the undersigned humbly petition Your Majesty for protection of life and liberty of your 23-months-old subject Alfie Evans.
The judges in Your Majesty’s Courts have given orders:

  • to kill Alfie on an appointed hour at Alder Hey Hospital in Liverpool by withdrawing his life support;
  • for the day and hour of that killing to be kept secret from the public to avoid any protest or hinderance; and
  • for Alfie to be detained in Alder Hey until his death - any attempt to release him to be resisted by force, and punished by imprisonment. These cruel orders are not authorised by any law ever passed in a democratic Parliament. Instead, the said judges pretend to exercise Your Majesty’s ancient autocratic jurisdiction over the life and death of your subjects. As loyal subjects, we refuse to believe that Your Majesty would ever command such evil deeds to be done; and we denounce Alfie’s death sentence and imprisonment as a seditious usurpation against Your Majesty and the law of the land. There is no time to spare anymore. We shall patiently await Your Majesty’s royal protection and justice; and in the meantime, Alfie’s Army and the good people of Liverpool will not sit back and allow this to happen. I can not stop them from now joining up and demonstrating outside alder hey again to do their utmost to defend Alfie against all those who prepare to take his life in the next hours*^

The latest post- I hope he doesn't regret not spending this time focus on spending time with Alfie

Burntout93 · 22/04/2018 18:00

Is that post by Tom Evans?

confusedlittleone · 22/04/2018 18:04

Yup

miffytherabbit1974 · 22/04/2018 18:05

Over the last few days I’ve noticed a considerable shift in attitude on social media. To begin with the consensus was almost completely supportive and empathic. Now there is much, much more criticism of Tom Evans and less willingness to empathise with his position. As there has been on this thread, there’s also a mounting frustration at some of the things he is doing, even taking into account the fact he, his partner and his son are in a truly dreadful situation. So, it’s as though the well of empathy is running dry, through the actions of T.E and the “Army”, and perhaps because of a general “empathy fatigue” which seems to occur in a lot of painful and distressing situations which go on for a long time.

I won't quote the entire statement by T.E, but, as other folks on here have pointed out, the last paragraph is concerning:

“We shall patiently await Your Majesty’s royal protection and justice; and in the meantime, Alfie’s Army and the good people of Liverpool will not sit back and allow this to happen. I can not stop them from now joining up and demonstrating outside alder hey again to do their utmost to defend Alfie against all those who prepare to take his life in the next hours/days.”

Whilst it is likely to bolster T.E’s core group of "army" supporters, I think it is possibly going to further alienate T.E, as far as the wider general public are concerned. This is because what he’s written here is a threat, and he’s tacitly imploring, in a dog-whistle manner, a mob of people to carry out mob rule by doing their “utmost to defend Alfie against all those who prepare to take his life…” I am hoping that someone with some common sense has a very stern word with T.E before he posts anything else which might be interpreted as inciting violence or even provoking riotous behaviour (I’m not sure what the correct legal name for this is).

Yes, perhaps T.E is acting out of “desperation”. Most decent thinking people want to believe that’s why he’s behaving like this. I don’t want to consider any other alternatives, but, I have considered there might be alternatives. I don’t know him. But I do know that he is burning through people’s reserves of compassion and understanding. This is a desperate shame, not least because I keep thinking about Alfie’s mum. It would be horrible for people to run out empathy and compassion towards her through no fault of her own. As other posters have noted, she seems to have been rather forgotten in all of this by many people. I’m guessing that her way of dealing with this is very, very different to that of her partner. I’m speculating here but perhaps she doesn’t want all of this circus going on around her and her child? I don’t know. But I do know that if T.E continues down this path, it’s almost certainly going to result in more pain for him and for all those intimately involved in the life of Alfie Evans.

BigPinkBall · 22/04/2018 18:07

That post just goes to show what a fundamental lack of knowledge of the British legal & parliamentary system he has, I presume even the Christian Legal Centre have given up now?

confusedlittleone · 22/04/2018 18:10

Just after that post went up another went up asking people to gather at the park by alder hey for a peaceful vigil.. @BigPinkBall his lawyers known for using cases like this to show to help his own agenda, he's probably loving the mob mentality of Alfie's army tbh

IrenetheQuaint · 22/04/2018 18:13

Whoever wrote the formal sections of that petition has been looking at examples of pleas and petitions from the 17th and 18th centuries. It's been a long time since the British monarch had (or sought) any real power in this sort of situation.

miffytherabbit1974 · 22/04/2018 18:13

@BigPinkBall

I totally agree. I'm not sure what they except the Queen to do? Hit the consultants over the head with her Ball & Sceptre?

NerrSnerr · 22/04/2018 18:19

How are the staff going to ensure that Alfie's death is going to be peaceful and dignified? They will do absolutely everything to ensure both parents are with him but what if he kicks off again? The parents need to be with him, but it needs to be right for Alfie.

It's an ethical minefield which is not helped by the idiots of Facebook talking about murder and the other shit they're spouting.

It appears that Alfie's Dad hasn't accepted the inevitable but I really hope his mum has and is concentrating 100% on Alfie's last hours.

BigPinkBall · 22/04/2018 18:21

It just very much sounds like someone who’s never been told “no” before and thinks that if they stamp their feet loud enough they’ll get what they want.

If all the doctors (and I bet there will have been many) have told you there’s no hope, and the various courts and appeals have looked at all the evidence and agreed that there’s no hope then at some point the family have got to take a step back and see that all of these professional, educated people aren’t colluding to kill a baby but are acting in his best interests.

I hope AH and other hospitals can learn from this and implement ways to communicate with families to prevent future cases getting to this stage.

Burntout93 · 22/04/2018 18:26

A vigil will not remain peaceful

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/04/2018 18:27

These cruel orders are not authorised by any law ever passed in a democratic Parliament

Huh?

Your Majesty’s ancient autocratic jurisdiction over the life and death of your subjects

Eh?

... a seditious usurpation against Your Majesty and the law of the land

You what?

Hmm Hmm Hmm

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 22/04/2018 18:30

The vigil may be peaceful but the calls to protest... They'll be far from it.

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