to not know what is the definition of a man?

[Elendon]

I simply cannot define a man unless I bring biology into it.

Can anyone tell me what the definition of a man is?

It is a biological category, so you cannot definite it without using biology.

Obviously man has two meanings, one being biological adult male human cytomegalovirus or xxy chromosome - even with Jacobs syndrome there has to be a y) and the other being mankind, human. Both are biological categories.

The age of adulthood could be debated, that's less cut and dried than biological sex and is part biological and part legal and cultural.

Confused - no, I don’t think you can be transracial. Again, that documentary about the Germans - it was creepy to me, seeing whites people putting on First Nations identity as a costume (& always plains and southwest identities). A costume they could opt out of at any point. A costume that gave not a moments recognition to FN lives in the 21st century, 200+ years after contact. A costume that reduced FN lives to powwows and a vague “spirituality”.

People can’t be transracial, imo, because it is asking us to pretend that people can forget a lifetime of experience and social cues and group bonding, and that ethnicity is a costume (I don’t like the term race as we’re of the human race with a variety of skin tones and cultures).

People can identify with different cultures due to family and upbringing, but I don’t believe adults can suddenly adopt another culture because they find it interesting.

I am of English descent for the most part and moved to England when I was 19. No-one ever let me forget that I was a foreigner despite my all-English grandparents and some shared cultural practices. So if I can’t be trans-English as a white Anglo-Canadian, then no to the Germans playing “Indianer” and no to Rachel Doziel. not that I was trying to pass, my accent didn’t change a ton.

• apologies for the made up word - I have no idea where cytomegalovirus came from, but my phone remembered it... Maybe it is an actual word... It wasn't meant to be in my post anyway!

But history is mainly reported via a male perspective, with a handful of exceptions. Female historical accounts are mainly dismissed, disbelieved or not heard.

I love the Rubble Women. Trummerfrauen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%BCmmerfrau

www.dw.com/en/remembering-germanys-rubble-women/a-1575535-0

Yes Elendon. I was a girl but loved “boys” toys. Refused to ever wear a dress or heels. I even went through a phase of straddling the toilet so I could pee standing up! I was convinced I was a boy without a willy. Puberty hit and my girlfriends were pretty much into make up and glam clothing. I never was.

I got married and had children. I’m still not particularly feminine but I’m still a woman and have no wish not to be.

Lots of children go through some sort of phase about their sexuality. Most grow out of it. Those who still have those feelings past puberty generally accept they are who they are.

We probably all know men who are effeminate and women who are quite masculine in their outlook. They don’t all tantrum in an attempt for the world the bow down to them - especially when they seek to make women uncomfortable in their quest to become a woman.

Their wishes and feelings are at odds with the wishes, feelings, comfort and safety of the gender they would like to be and want to become. It’s about time the minority of trans women/ gender fluid people realised they are turning women against them - because of their constant, unreasonable demands.

No, I meant Germans idealise the past of the Indigenous peoples of North America (their pre-contact past).

With regards to race, when it comes to cancer you cannot dismiss it.

www.breastcancer.org/research-news/ashkenazi-jews-risk-of-other-genetic-mutations

Transmen can’t get prostate cancer and transwomen can’t get cervical or ovarian cancer too!

Actually to be honest I do not think that this is very common in Germany. They might do it for the carnival, but apart from that...
I am pretty knowledgeable about Germany. Never heard of this ever. I do not say it does not exist, I am sure it does but it does not play a big role in German culture.
If they idealize something that is more contemporary American culture (cheerleading, hamburgers, basketball and so on).

TBH I feel quite comforted that so many other people disagree with self-identification. To read the mainstream press and social media, it feels like I’m the only one.

Confused, they were showing these big theme parks that they said attracted over 200,000 visitors a year. It sounded like a fair whack of it started in the former east Germany but is now a thing in the whole of Germany. One theme park was in the north and one was in Bavaria.

Oh, now that you say it, maybe this had to do with Winnetou/old shatterhand. There was a German writer, Karl May, who wrote about his alter egos travels to the Wild West and the Middle East... i know there are Karl May theme parks Andy Karl May plays, but I do think it plays very little role German culture.

Elelndon, not that you’re saying this, but Jews are not a race or how are converts explained? Or Ethiopian Jews or Bene (from India).

Ashkenazi Jews share common roots in the Middle East (as is proven by DNA). But to me it’s common roots, not a separate “race”. To me the idea of race implies that there’s some pure stock of some group, which is nonsense, but it also implies some vast difference biologically, when in fact aside from the visuals we’re not that different from each other (all have ears on the side of our heads, big toes, etc). The difference is in cultural practices, and those do not cause cancer, a shared gene pool (in the case of Tay Sachs, ovarian cancer, sickle cell anemia etc) does.

Well, 200k visitors is maybe the same percentage as, I don’t know, goths in modern Britain. But it’s not tiny. And it is weird!

lizzieoak I think you are conflating Jews as a race with Judaism, which is a religion. I'm not being critical. It's often done.

I have to go now and attend to domestic and then work duties. Thanks to all for a really informative thread.

Yeah, but then I think it is not more people than those who visit fake German Oktoberfests in the USA. They have also very little to do with German culture.

One last thing. Goths were a race of people. Some of us in the UK may well be descended from them.

What has race got to do with the definition of man anyway?

It's very much off topic and not in the spirit of my original posting.

So if we could keep on topic I would much appreciate it.

I agree Elendon. This thread was interesting until it went totally off topic. I was just about to hide it. Ill stay now :)

I think it’s related, because the popular/government view is that you can change sex, but not race. And this makes no sense. Both are based on biology. It highlights how ridiculous it is to accept that a man can have xx chromosomes and a vagina.

My reasoning was as following: Some people say they are male because they feel like it... but what if I do feel African or like a member of the house of Windsor? Or like a person born in 1900?

In cannot say I am actually 118 years old just cause I feel like I am a member of that generation, can I?

So which if this categories can I change, which can I not change? Why it is believed I can change my gender but not my ethnicity or age?

I had a friend who played with the girls at primary school too. He’s now a very happy gay man. If he was a child now, would he be encouraged to think he’s actually a woman because he prefers skipping to football?

It’s really interesting that we basically all agree, yet there’s no publicised voices of dissent against self-identification in the media.

Elendon, I’m not conflating Jews “as a race” and Judaism. I am Jewish btw. I am disagreeing with the concept of race as it applies to anyone. In my view there are skin tones, ethnicities, etc - but race is a weird, loaded concept and I’m not on board with it.

Yes, obviously in the mists of time the Visigoths were a people. I thought it was obvious I meant people who like to wear black, a lot of eyeliner, and listen to certain bands.

As for the thread going off topic ... it happens. They’re a conversation so will wander off into different rooms. I agree with HRH that the rooms are adjacent though. If it’s obvious to most people that you can’t change race, then why is changing gender possible? I don’t mind how people dress, but don’t push me out of my space to do it. And don’t say that a costume defines any group.

I see the same danger you see. Some people are being made believe they are being trans when the just do not fit in with how gender is typically done in their culture.