To think Corbyn's maths is wrong again

[Rebeccaslicker]

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/28/jeremy-corbyn-announces-labour-will-buy-every-homeless-person/amp/

How is this going to work? Does he mean "give" as in legally transfer or does he mean no rent? How does he think the houses are going to be maintained and utility bills paid? Is it fair on people who've been on waiting lists? Is it really going to reduce the numbers of homeless people if it becomes seen as a quick way to skip the queue?

I got back to my car in an NCP the other night, to find 5 homeless people right next to it with foil and needles. They were also going through some wallets (which may well have been their own; I didn't stop to check of course). The state of them was very sad and although I did feel intimidated at first, I also didn't report them because I thought, where else would they go - it's chucking it down. But then again, no way would they be able to look after a house. They were like zombies.

He's absolutely right to want to do something about the homeless situation. There should be more lots more help. But I don't think this is the answer. AIBU?

Corbyn is talking about 8,000 homes. That will cost a huge amount. But even that's not going to deal with the numbers you're talking about either, believe. It won't scratch the surface. Which makes the "policy" even more pointless than it was when he said it in the first place!

Talking about people "bleating" about paying more tax misses the point too. You're alienating the exact people you're also expecting to pay more. That's never going to win people over to your policies. You need to persuade people that it's a good idea they pay more. Lecturing and hectoring just makes you sound insufferable.

I'd start with education and making people more aware. For example the homeless charity I do work for has people in to paint rooms and do gardening etc - it's amazing how donations increase after an initiative like that. Homeless people aren't cute like baby animals, for example, so raising awareness and sympathy is much more difficult than it is for an animal charity. And there's a lot of intolerance and ignorance about how people end up in that position. Education would help that.

Buying houses and talking about "giving" the to the homeless is woefully unrealistic, poorly explained, and thoroughly inadequate. Like the rest of JC's ideas!

@Rebeccaslicker from your posts I cannot see how you’d ever change your view regardless of what I’ve said. You’ve come with nothing.
JC was talking about rough sleepers then expanded his policies on tackling homelessness. He didn’t say only buy 8,000 properties

As for nimbyism - councils have to go through the same planning committees as private developers. So not sure what you’re getting at.

Councils have too many restrictions. If they sell homes via right to buy, they cannot use the receipts to build. They have to somehow find a 70% contribution which isn’t from the council to build. There are plans to make councils sell high value properties to fund housing Association right to buy which is ridiculous. Councils cannot borrow enough to build more even though it’s a very solid economic investment.

So, no, councils don’t have enough freedoms.

I'd start with education and making people more aware

Aware of what? how does that solve the immediate problem of 120k children in temp accommodation.

Wonder where they all the homeless were pre-2012 😏

www.google.co.uk/amp/metro.co.uk/2017/04/16/every-flat-in-new-london-estate-has-been-sold-to-foreign-investors-6577715/amp/

As for nimbyism - councils have to go through the same planning committees as private developers. So not sure what you’re getting at.

Yes you do, your just being obtuse, it's an unfortunate fact that if a new development is proposed on the edge of a town village the mix of social/private housing is proportionate to the backlash, that is not political leaning.

Sigh. Because it would make people more willing to understand and help, believe. You'd do the exact opposite with your attitude.

Let's get this straight. You seriously believe that all those people could be found homes, overnight (sorry, "immediately") just by chucking tax money at it without taking the time to work out properly how it's going to work in practice. Meanwhile there's amounts also needed for every other item on the social agenda: the NHS, education, social care - to say nothing of the other JC promises like tuition fees. And you think all this can be achieved with a small rise on income tax.

That article can't be right - Southwark is a labour council. And only tories fuck up the housing, apparently...!

I didn’t say this would be achieved by a rise in income tax actually. I didn’t even even at I agreed with his policy.

What I did say was at least he is trying to come up with solutions.

I suspect I know more about housing and homelessness than you and don’t need education. Nor am I so foolish as to believe that education alone will overcome low wages and extortionate housing costs. How will that help anything?
As for chucking money at the problem - money is already being chucked at it but in the wrong way. Millions are spent on temporary accommodation. It’s ridiculous.

Corbyn’s idea was to tackle the short term problem and long term problem. At the moment I only see wishful thinking.

Well if you do, believe, you keep it very well hidden. You do realise what I mean by "education", right? Because it sounds as if you've misunderstood.

@Justanotherlurker

Councils cannot build social housing at all - they can only ask developers to do so.

Housing associations have no problems building affordable homes - they don’t hit as many problems with nimbyism. So no, I’m not being “obtuse”

Some of the marxist ideology and economic illiteracy on this thread is downright frightening, as is the level of hatred for anyone perceived to be "a rich Tory" - which is ironic, given the jabbering about "class hatred" we so often see from the extreme left

It may well have value, though, in fleshing out for the undecided exactly what mindsets may prevail, should the nightmare of a Corbyn/Momentum victory ever become a reality

For that reason alone, maybe we need more of it, not less

please, patronise me and tell me more about your great scheme to educate homelessness away.

I’d also like to hear more about the Marxist ideology.

Please, I’m all ears.

You really are unpleasant, aren't you? Must be awful being eaten up by so much bitterness!

I said, one of the ways in which I would make small start is by educating people about homelessness. By teaching them how it arises and that it can happen to anyone. Because a huge number of people are very judgmental and just assume that all homeless people are professional Romanian beggars or drug addicts. Because they don't see it as their problem. Because they don't want social housing on their doorstep, never mind hostels. Because raising awareness and understanding is one way to start combating it. Because I listen to the people at the charity I work with and I believe them that public attitudes can be a big part of the battle. But you go ahead and assume that's "patronising".

And then what? Once you’ve educated people, then what?

I’m getting fed up of the rudeness. You’ve not really come up with a way to end homelessness beyond education.

These things take money. The money has to come from somewhere. Ultimately it isn’t infinite. We’ve reached a point where the gap between rich and poor is a chasm. There’s no such thing as the trickle down effect - it just hasn’t happened. So we all need to take a long hard look at whether taxes need to go up amongst other things. Something has caused this problem. It needs fixing and that means hard choices.

I didn’t say this would be achieved by a rise in income tax actually. I didn’t even even at I agreed with his policy.

What I did say was at least he is trying to come up with solutions.

Your begining to sound like make with all the mental gymnastics he has played with his pro EU stance that is in direct conflict to JC.

So if it is about bringing about discussion on solutions, I will propose a somewhat difficult area.

We could follow EU legislation and deport homeless/rough sleepers, that would help alleviate the problem, where do you stand on that?

We could follow EU legislation and deport homeless/rough sleepers, that would help alleviate the problem, where do you stand on that?

Eu nationals, that is.

Sorry very dyslexic and generally shit and written english.

I would at that homelessness isn’t just about rough sleepers. Hundreds of thousands of people are not rough sleeping but are homeless.

So your solution wouldn’t work.

You’ve assumed I agree with buying 8,000 homes - why? We don’t live in a black and white world where you only vote labour or Tory.

*Believe" could I perhaps refer you to Marx's shibboleth: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" ... a noble ideal in its way, but lacking as usual in the nuances of practical application

And I imagine it's relevance to many posts needs no further advertisement to those already familiar with extremist thought processes

whats so extreme about thinking that children shouldn’t be living in shit accommodation and should have stable homes? So they can fulfil their potential and do something with their lives?

What’s so extreme about that? Because, ultimately that’s what drives my politics. I have no desire to see a communist state. I think we’ve gone too far in terms of the balance between haves and have nots. Too far, and it does our economy no good at all.

Oh it's me that's rude? You really need to reread your own posts

You talk about an "immediate" fix, but everything you've proposed takes not only money but time.

You talk about money, but you won't even entertain ideas about how to get people to swallow the kind of tax rises you are talking about. Or how you propose to deal with it if they won't swallow them.

But it's everyone else who's failing to provide solutions, isn't it?!

whats so extreme about thinking that children shouldn’t be living in shit accommodation and should have stable homes?

Nothing even remotely extremist about that ... only some of the suggestions for how it should be brought about

Such as..... buying houses isn’t extreme. That’s what is needed to plug the gap due to the loss of social housing. Councils are effectively renting on a short term basis for hundreds of thousands of people. Buying homes is hardly a massive leap away from that.

I haven’t actually suggested any specific tax rises. You assume that people won’t like tax rises, flip side of the same coin perhaps.

Slinging around phrases like extreme etc etc just serve no purpose.

You call me rude because I’ve challenged you repeatedly on your insistence that JC is coming up with crazy ideas. Yet the Tories are presiding over massive cuts which run our infrastructure into the ground and we can’t tackle long term problems.

We end up being stuck in a political cycle of the tories making cuts to mop up the mistakes of labour, yet labour have to make massive spending increases to rectify the decimation of the tories. We are walking into the 1990s all over again. It’s boring.

OK now the last paragraph I can agree with. I honestly wonder if it's time to let the LDs have a go, on the basis that they can't be any worse than labour or the tories.

”The housing benefit bill would cover a lot of house building...”

So, @BabooskaBabooshka, when all the Housing Benefit is diverted into house building, what happens to all the people who were receiving it? Do you expect that the private landlords will let their tenants stay on for free, whilst these new homes are being built? I doubt that would happen, so what is to happen to all these people? What about the Housing associations and councils - do you expect them to carry on providing accommodation, with the costs that involves in terms of upkeep and maintenance, without any income from rent?

If you live in a rented property, whether it belongs to a council, HA or private landlord, paying rent is not optional, and if people need housing benefit to pay all or part of their rent, you can’t just casually take that money and reallocate it to a different budget.