To think Transwomen in female sports has taken a strange new turn?

[bambambini]

www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2018/01/11/these-transgender-cyclists-have-olympian-disagreement-how-define-fairness/995434001/

As a women who has always played competitive sports, I’ve been following the progress of Transwomen and transgirls in sport. Seems this article shows that some transwomen are now pushing for no limits placed on TW at all. The article shows the disagreement between TW cyclists on the issue.

I guess if we really are to accept that TW are women then this is actually the logical outcome. If TW are women then to put special measures and judgements in place for TW would indeed be prejudiced and discriminatory.

I do wonder whether the article is the closest a mainstream US publication can get to trying to peak trans its readership. Talking to Canadian friends, the press pretty much can't say anything trans-critical at all. But by framing it as a disagreement between two transwomen athletes, USA Today manage to simultaneously underline the absurdity of it all whilst being able to say "but honest guv, we weren't being transphobic - look we're just reporting a disagreement between two brave transwomen athletes here."

I completely disagree with TW taking part in women's sports.

But I don't know what the answer is.

The answer is that trans-identified males should take part in men's sports, and if because of their artificially altered hormone levels they find themselves at a disadvantage, well, that's their problem. All choices have consequences and trade-offs.

As far as I'm concerned, trans-identified men can join the millions of other men who have rendered themselves uncompetitive in men's sport because of deliberate choices they've made regarding their bodies, whether that's taking oestrogen or eating chips all day and refusing to exercise.

The same goes for trans-identified females. If they choose to take testosterone, they are choosing to opt out of eligibility for women's sports (and hence all sports, since they are not competitive against men, regardless of how much testosterone they take).

@mailTo so you aren't interested in fairness in sports? OK then!

Hmm, PricklyBall, I see what you're saying but I think it might be a bit optimistic. The article goes out of its way to frame the current situation, which enables men like the two in the article to win competitions that are supposed to be for women, as fair, which it manifestly isn't.

The advantages that people with male physiology have over females in sports go well beyond testosterone, and involve the whole skeletal and muscular system and especially men's larger heart and lungs. Women's rib cages are smaller and angled differently to men's (presumably to accomodate the displacement of internal organs during pregnancy), which means our lungs are on average 10 per cent smaller than those of a man of similar size and weight. This allows men to take in more oxygen, a very significant factor in cycling and indeed most sports. There's a reason EPO is a banned substance along with testosterone.

I also thought that the article's framing of Bearden's argument as concern for female competitors was a bit disingenuous. Bearden isn't as detached from reality as McKinnon, so he can see that McKinnon's proposal would lead to a genuine backlash against trans-identified males in women's sports, because the sheer absurdity of the situation would be impossible to deny. He is keen to avoid that happening, for obvious reasons.

Neither gives a shit about women.

I also loved this bit of sophistry from McKinnon:

while McKinnon believes subjecting trans women to testosterone blocking violates their human rights.

Nobody is strapping him to a hospital bed and forcing testosterone blockers down his throat. If he doesn't want to alter his hormone levels, he can get out of women's sports. (Actually, he can get out anyway.) This tactic of claiming that any denial of their will is a human rights violation is so typical of trans activists.

www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11955973

Sadly neither are original or interesting.

Neither are you.

The answer is that we don’t always get what we want in life, and if that extends to ‘you can’t compete as a professional because you are male’ then so be it.

Mediocre men winning things that women are now completely blocked from. And I think you’ll find that most of the sporting communities feel the same - particularly the men, who are lucky enough to not be branded TERFs and bigots and risk doxxing for having an opinion.

I don’t get to say I’m actually a 16 year old therefore I am going to be a professional model, and I doubt any of the women who won the World Cup would be accepted into premiership football teams. But because a man decides he is a transgender woman and - hang on! - his stats are now better than the pro females, he gets to compete with them?! No. No way.

I thought it was a fascinating article. On the one hand the person who feels their rights should basically trump everyone else, with no compromise at all. On the other hand the person who thinks that the current rules legitimise their success and mean that if they win their win won't be questionable.

We've argued here that the new laxer rules are unfair (one year of 'life as a woman' presumably to validate the presumed gender dysphoria plus only testosterone at 10 times the natural level for women to imply no cheating). In some ways it might be better if they were thrown out completely as with the current approach I would guess it's very much harder for female athletes and their supporters to object. However that would be really shit for the current generation of athletes.

Another interesting twist is that women's sports in general gets very little coverage, and female athletes only tend to get any attention if they are exceptional or if they are attractive (preferably both). If the coverage twists to trans athletes then that further detracts from women (and the coverage is very important for sponsorships and other fundraising opportunities). It will be interesting to see if trans athletes do become successful whether the coverage will be similar to that for men, for women or fall in some special category of it's own.

We've argued here that the new laxer rules are unfair (one year of 'life as a woman' presumably to validate the presumed gender dysphoria plus only testosterone at 10 times the natural level for women to imply no cheating). In some ways it might be better if they were thrown out completely as with the current approach I would guess it's very much harder for female athletes and their supporters to object. However that would be really shit for the current generation of athletes.

That is a very interesting point. I think it would be better, as it would bring the situation to a head. In that sense I don't see how it would be worse for the current generation than the slow death we have now.

It's worth pointing out that it isn't just elite female athletes who lose out when men are allowed to compete with women. It's all women and girls. Because the presence of men (and boys) in women's sport has a discouraging effect on all females who might wish to participate at every level - it fosters a 'why even try' attitude. This will have detrimental effects on women's health and fitness (including mental health) across the population.

Yes, there is the massive de-motivating effect of not having any role models. I'd add to that the fact that contact sports (women's rugby, martial arts, boxing) simply become too dangerous for women even at an amateur effort if they're suddenly facing a 6 foot bloke in a ruck or in the boxing ring. (My DS is still young enough that his rugby team is mixed - I could weep for the future of the three little girls on his team who play their hearts out every week, and face a future in which it won't be safe for them, post-puberty, to continue in a sport they obviously love).

You know what I would find fascinating. That bbc documentary with Ben fogal? Don't know if I spelled it correctly. When they stuck a load of people on an island and they had to fend for themselves. I think it was in Scotland. If we did this over ten years with post op trans men and women. It would be really interesting to see the "gender roles" it would also be really interesting to see the population rate growth. Biology v gender stereotypes: you decide!

I guess eventually an entire team will contain only Transwomen.

I feel perhaps wrongly I don't know ....that some unscrupulous countries may use these women deliberately in their quest for medals and prowess in sports. I hope not. I fear for the North Koreans in these Olympics , if they do not win will they be safe given their leader.

43percent - there's a famous photo of the Saudi "women's" football team - 8 of them are transwomen.

From my reading of the article I would suggest that no one is stopping trans women competing just that as being male and having male physiology they can compete against men.

Why would they think they were women.

The whole thing stinks.

I think Mckinnon's delusion is so strong that no amount of logic will get through to them. It is all me me me.

I have also read something about Beardon and although they say that their levels and perfomance have dropped, my understanding is that they have droppe only just enough to prove that they have reached a parity - ie they say that 11% is the difference between elite men and elite women times/ performance and this is no where they are, but my understanding is that they are much more successful now than as a male competitor so seem to still benefit from some advantage. Also I think they are racing at a high level for their age still as per Hubbard.

I agree that it was a smart way for USA to present the debate.

Also, I want cisgender stopped in its tracks before it becomes anymore mainstream. It was mentioned in the artile and it really does grate. There was no comment or contact section so I could not complain direct.

Thankfully, many sports are getting rid of the awful and sexist use of podium girls, but while some still have them, do you think we will see transwomen as podium girls? Most men would hate that more than all trans sports teams/ tennis players, but of course I dont think it will happen.

I guess eventually an entire team will contain only Transwomen.

The Iranian 'women's' football team isn't far off.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/10/02/iranian-womens-football-squad-includes-eight-trans-women-report-claims/

Women's hockey also concerns me - that is also incredibly physical and dangerous. A TIM would be really dangerous as an opponent.

But really there are aso many people including myslef and DH who have had to give up sport for a variety of reasons including not meeting drug testing requirements becasue of medical conditions, (or child birth!!), that I think they just have to accept that their situation is just one of life's gives and takes. Fat chance!

Be honest, men are bigger and stronger. They have an advantage over women, even if they wear pink trainers

I should have added a disclaimer to my post about the Iranian football team.

I doubt that any of the MTTs in that team actually identify as women. Most, if not all, have been forced to identify as trans in order to survive, as being gay in Iran carries the death penalty.

Bearden is actually a member of a Transwomen road cycling team.

I have a solution. If you are trans, you can't compete in the Olympics.

What's the big deal? I'm not likely to be in the Olympics either and you don't hear me whining about it.

Do something else with your time. It's not a tragedy if you don't get to show the world how fast you can run.

More than just identify FurCoatFurKnickers, they will likely have been told that they can either take the hormones and have the operation or die (or become refugees). There was a very moving documentary about gay Iranian refugees made a few years ago and I remember vividly one man who had gone down the trans route, regretted it and fled the country anyway saying how he had been a pretty man but was now an unattractive 'woman' and felt he'd never find love again.

Totally agree re amateur sports. My ds and I did martial arts together, and even as a young teen he could beat me hands down. There were some talented girls in our club (I was one of only two adult parents who participated all the rest were children) but past puberty the boys were just so much more powerful.

"I have a solution. If you are trans, you can't compete in the Olympics.
"

It's not only at Olympic level, even lower-level sport is actively recruiting men.

twitter.com/BreakawaysAFL/status/920221276588851200

twitter.com/BreakawaysAFL/status/951614059912114176

Granted, at that sort of level you may not be competing for more than pride, so the cheating shit of a bloke might just push you down from the 1st team to the 2nd team, or have you on the sidelines making tea instead of playing, but there are also serious safety issues - one huge man, who says he is a female lesbian broke a woman's leg: pressnewsreporter.com/2017/10/13/aflw-draft-transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey-waits-on-eligibility-ruling/

So basically the idea is to encourage transwomen - i.e. men - to play, which will obviously discourage women, but nobody gives a shit about that because men are more important.

Unplug, on the 11 per cent difference thing, this is a really interesting article:

www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/we-thought-female-athletes-were-catching-up-to-men-but-theyre-not/260927/

It discusses a study by Ira Hammerman that posits that men's greater haemoglobin levels (presumably due to their larger lungs) is the main factor in the performance gap between the sexes, which would go some way to explaining why trans males, even middle-aged ones, often perform far above women even testosterone suppression, as well as why the approximately 10 per cent gap is so consistent across a wide range of sports:

Hammerman looked at a total of 82 events in all, across six sports, and the difference between all of their records fell between .84 and .94...

Taking a kind of wild shot at which biological factors might affect athletic performance, Hammerman looked at hemoglobin counts and the maximum amount of oxygen an athlete can use in a minute. And guess what he found? Men have an average of 13.6 to 17.5 grams of hemoglobin per decalliter in their blood. Women have 12.0 to 15.5 g/dl. The ratio? .88 to .89.

As I pointed out above, EPO, which increases the haemoglobin in a person's blood, is a banned substance in athletic competition. It is so effective at improving performance that it is one of the most widely used illegal drugs in sports. Lance Armstrong used it to 'win' seven Tours de France. Yet female athletes are being forced to compete against people who, due to their sex, have much higher relative levels of haemoglobin in their blood than Armstrong had against his clean competitors.

Women's sports bodies need to get informed and get organised, and use studies like Hammerman's to push back against the ridiculous, politically imposed fiction that testosterone levels are the only thing that matters when it comes to male competitive advantage in sport.