... to feel disgusted at fox-chasing toff-twits!

[counterpoint]

On my way to a local town for lunch today, we had to slow down and stop as a horse came galloping up towards us in the middle of the road. On his back sat a dandified twit who was looking for his hounds. In the nearby field some 100 (I kid you not) other starched twits sat on brainwashed horses with hungry hounds running amok. Traffic swayed and stopped as these twits had clearly lost the little sense they had and were dispersing all over the highway, horses looking dazed at being led among cars at great speed on slippery tarmac. Hounds confusedly sniffing all over the road and verges. How much had these twit-toffs drunk? It was not yet noon!

My friends in our car tried to calm me down saying it must be a drag when all of a sudden a poor defenseless fox jumped on the dry-stone wall looking wild-eyed as it tried to determine whether he was safer making a run for it across a busy road or turn back into a field of crazed, uncontrolled hounds and drunken (British?) twits. The fox froze and the driver of my car sped on as I screamed with panic for the predictable fate of the fox.

Why the f*ck is a supposedly civilized country allowing this kind of savagery to continue?

Excellent posts by Frilly and StarkDismay.

Bettrand “sheep, large flicks of free range chickens”

We used to farm so you can add piglets to that list. We never allowed hunting on our land. Yes we lost livestock and but there are other ways to deal with foxes which are more humane than chasing it and than ripping it apart.

Can't sit & completely unpick atm but I wanted to say thank you to the people who have genuinely put their side across. I think the massive consensus that screams to me is that not everybody involved - on both sides - is in it for the stereotypical reasons, ie to kill a fox or to save a fox.

Hopefully this will still be running later as i'm really interested now that people are being forthcoming

I agree with the Jilly Cooper reference to Stark’s Post.

It’s typical of the people who hunt but you’ll never justify what you do to many many people. Including many county dwellers.

Do I dislike the hunting of live animals with hounds - yes actually. But do I agree that the hunt is fox chasing toff twits - no. Your extreme prejudice and social stereotyping is showing in the title presuming it’s a bunch of toffs.

George - are you a meat eater?

Because if you eat factory farmed meat and animal products it's hard to reconcile that with being concerned with animal welfare.

I don't think Stark is trying to justify it. She probably thought it might be interesting to hear from someone who hunts.

Agreed Blem.

I don't think any of us are trying to justify - we hunt legally so no justification required but maybe an explanation, discussion and exploration.

Yes. It might be worth trying to remember that hunting is legal and noone is breaking the law by attending a hunt.

I don't need to justify to anyone what I do. I am riding my horse with permission of the landowner following another rider who is leading hounds round a trail laid using an artificial scent. Depending on the pack there may or may not somewhere, at a different place to where we are, be someone who is employed by the hunt lawfully carrying out pest control. I don't trespass, I don't kill foxes, I don't get involved in any illegal activities. I am as much interested in any law breaking as the average football fan is in hooliganism. And this is much the same with most people who follow hunts. But opinions have been made by people who's main source of information is cunningly edited footage uploaded to Facebook and it is given as true facts.

As I have said, on both sides of the argument there are many people doing what they do without breaking any laws. And there are a much smaller number on both sides who act unacceptably. I think what frustrates most people who follow hounds is the assumption by the vocal anti-hunting brigade that everyone acts at the very extreme end of behaviour.

George199 was that honestly all you got from Stark's massively informative post?

What keeps coming across to me is the mess which seems to have been made of the legislation - though there's nothing new there, of course. Perhaps it would be worth revisiting it ... and in the meantime, maybe both hunters and sabs of the more extreme type could at least try to stick by the spirit of the law?

Tony Blair in his memoirs says that the Hunting Act is his greates domestic regret.

Stark is correct - it is deliberately fudgy and helps and suits no one. The antis hate it because hunting remains legal and the pros hate it because most people don't understand it's still legal and hunters get abuse and attacks even when hunting within the law.

It needs reform. Tightening or loosening - but reform.

fueled they do exist. You need to look into drag packs that have always been so; the best place to start is here:

www.mdbassociation.com/about-us/

Fuelled, look for drag and bloodhound packs. I’d recommend you go out on foot the first time -different packs have different ideas about speed and size of obstacles! Most packs will have a slower field as well as a faster field but you want to check that out before finding yourself in a field full of thoroughbreds charging toward the local version of Beecher Brook! Foxhound packs serve their hospitality at the meet whereas drag packs usually give a tea afterwards.

It’s typical of the people who hunt but you’ll never justify what you do to many many people. Including many county dwellers.

I’m also not trying to justify it, I don’t need to do that, we hunt within the law.

What is infuriating about these threads, are the amount of people who have never been hunting, nor worked in the countryside and in a lot of cases knowing very little about the countryside full stop, professing that they know some dark truth. Both myself and stark have explained logically why fox hunting exists and why it is a valid means of predation control, what is it that you know, that we don’t?

But surely it's only any form of "predation control" if you are actually killing a fox.....

Which happens in a legal hunt by terrier men, gun or bird of prey Rebecca.

As explained perfectly by Stark.

Farmers and landowners invite the hunt to draw their land to dispatch foxes by legal means.

Well no. She said, 1 or 2 dogs for flushing and shooting and 3 or more for using a bird of prey, which she then said never happens in practice. It's still grim, as you're still running after an animal to terrify and kill it, but I agree if that's what the law says, it's not illegal.

But if we are expected to believe that all the hunts with many dogs never kill a fox, or never kill a fox by dint of the hounds killing it, or that any death is a pure accident - nobody would swallow that!

And if you have evidence that that an illegal kill has occurred, Rebecca, I would urge you to report to the police.

I'm not quite sure what you want? Presumably you'd like to see the law tightened? I should certainly welcome a reform of the Act , as would many many pro hunters.

My hunt does flush to a bird of prey, BTW.

Yep, now that we are back in the country, I shall do precisely that. As I said, it's well known locally that one of the local hunts near me in particular is notorious for claiming "oops, accidents happen". I was also told anecdotally by the friend who used to hunt that the hawks were taken along as legal protection but were never used for the kill. Not surprising as I can't see the hounds being restrained enough to recognise the difference after being all heated up, and whilst you might back a hawk against one hound, 16 or 17 is another matter!

The original report commissioned by the govt to determine whether or not to ban hunting said that hunting didn't kill enough foxes for it to be able to claim to be a valid form of pest control.

What I'd really like is for people to see that chasing a terrified animal around and aiming ultimately to kill it is just not nice.

But in the absence of that, yes, I'd settle for a much tighter law to clarify things!

I'd like many things Rebecca, but I accept that others see life differently and that is their right.

Do you campaign as vigorously on battery farming?

I hope the legislation is tightened up one day. Chasing foxes with hounds even if a bird of prey is used at the end, and I doubt that happens much, is just as bad. Doubt the fox cares if its a dog or a bird which rips it to bits.