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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Not impressed with the daily chanting. Do other secondary schools do this?

332 replies

ReanimatedSGB · 12/01/2018 09:00

DS is in Year 8 and he has told me that, at the start of every lesson, they all have to stand up and chant together, something along the lines of 'we promise to be good and work hard' (OK that's NOT the wording, don';t want to give exact wording in case it outs us).

Every lesson FFS. This strikes me as a waste of time (DS told me that the class took to dragging it out as much as possible in lessons no one likes) and... well. a bit creepy and cultish. AIBU?

OP posts:
Rainbunny · 17/01/2018 19:01

Well it sounds harmless really but it's not very British is it? Cheesy positivity chants, good grief! I bet the teachers find it cringeworthy as well.

If I was a teacher I think my preferred starting routine would be to have all the students do 30 jumping jacks and then jog on the spot for a minute. Get some oxygen flowing to their brains!

noblegiraffe · 17/01/2018 19:20

If people are wondering why some schools are headed in a more authoritarian direction (most not as extreme as Michaela) it’s because of poor behaviour. The OP was saying upthread about how there’s a shortage of teachers and how teachers are quitting. While workload is the main problem, many schools are plagued by low-level disruption (kids not doing the work, not having a pen, talking when you’re talking, being late....) which is just endlessly tedious to deal with and eats up teaching time, and also more serious behaviour incidents (kids swearing at you, tipping tables over, throwing things, threats, assaults...) can be enough to make an overworked teacher throw in the towel. Lax behaviour policies don’t work effectively and a more authoritarian one may at least remove the drudge of low-level stuff.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/01/2018 19:32

Rainbunny

If I was a teacher I think my preferred starting routine would be to have all the students do 30 jumping jacks and then jog on the spot for a minute. Get some oxygen flowing to their brains!

Their was a push for this as a starter 5-7 years ago. So been there done that.

Opaldaisies · 17/01/2018 19:40

I don't know, we had a very short, motivational and sensible school motto and I honestly still refer to it now in my head Smile.

I think in today's day and age we are used to being treated individually and so anything that's expected as a group exercise without specifically benefitting the individual is seen as bad, it's not necessarily.

MaisyPops · 17/01/2018 19:55

I agree noble.
I think on MN people can be quite quick to decide that rules and expectations are draconian if they happen not to like them. Or present not following basic rules as part of some big philosophical revolution where they are bringing their children up to challenge authority which translates as 'don't do anything if you don't see the point' (which is just as irritating as people wanting blind conpliance).

I have routines and structure in my classroom. Students know i follow the school rules (even if some staff choose to be annoying & let their class out early for break/not set homework etc).
Students appreciate it though. They know where they stand. They know i care. They know i have high expectations, rules and routines because I want them to do well. Yes, i sanction but by this stage in the year i rarely give detentions because students know what is expected and i can spend time having positive relationships with students, getting to know them as individuals and having a bit of banter. It works because i respect and value them and they respect and value me.

Rainbunny · 17/01/2018 21:45

BoneyBackJefferson - Really? I was unaware of that! Did it catch on?

MaisyPops · 17/01/2018 22:12

rain
No kidding peoplr made entire spin off careers as consultants on it.

Google Brain Gym as a myth of learning.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure a spot of exercise probably does help you focus (I'm a fan of morning gym sessions) but they pedalled some utter tosh about it impriving outcomes, being essential to learning.

It was all part of the learning styles era where teachers were told to cater to learning styles like they were gospel and a child couldn't learn anotjer way. It since matetialised to be bollocks and whilst we all have a preference, it's good to work outside it.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/01/2018 22:17

Rainbunny

lasted about a year and was replaced by the brain gym which was a series of teaser questions to start off a lesson.
I think that it was preceded WALT and WILF.
We have also had Learning outcomes and for a while there was "every lesson must start with the lesson objectives"
There was a brief period of all, most and some.
Kicking around somewhere there is DIRT, and self target setting.

MaisyPops · 17/01/2018 22:22

Don't forget mini plenaries every 20 minutes to prove the children are making progress because some idiot decided that unless children can articulate how they have got better in 10-20 minute chunks then you are failing as a teacher. Sod having taught them Shakespeare and them writing an essay on a topic. Nope. It's all about entertaining the blighters who (because thry have such a dim view of children) mustn't be capable of difficult work. Nope. They need hooks to pokemon go or football and 27.8 tasks per lesson

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/01/2018 22:26

brain gym physical exercise

brain gym teaser cards on tes

Mistressiggi · 17/01/2018 22:30

I’d like a return to the teacher starting the lesson with a quick drink from their hip flask in the cupboard to get them through without screaming.

ReanimatedSGB · 18/01/2018 00:52

Maisy: those mini plenaries are another example of bullshit being forced on schools by idiots who don't understand children, learning, child development or anything else about education. And you wonder why a lot of people are encouraging their children to challenge authority rather than blindly obey? We've got an overall problem with education, which is nothing to do with 'bad parenting', it's a fundamental and wilful misunderstanding, at government level, of what education is and what it should be for. They think that children, like poor people, need to be brutalised into deference and compliance, and that school is about teaching them to know their place. Look at the latest fucking bullshit - get reception year kids sitting behind desks doing sums and cursive handwriting...

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 18/01/2018 06:42

Mini plenaries in themselves aren't bad. Assessment for learning is important. Feedback is important and there are countless studies to demonstrate the impact of feedback on pupil progress. The EEF hughlight feedback as one of the most effective tools for progress. Dylan william has done extensive research into AfL and the evidence suggests it is importand and it does work.
... so not bullshit as you delightfully describe.

Now in places people took the research and wording of ofsted and came up with this odd obsession with mini plenariws every 20 minutes.
It was annoying but not harmful to education and most teachers did challenge it. Part of the shift in how ofsted lool at lessons was because of teacher backlash.

You seem obsessed with this idea of 'blind obedience' but what you actually seem to mean is 'don't do anything you don't personally see thr point in'.

We've got anoverallproblem with education, which is nothing to do with 'bad parenting',
There are many problems in education.
One of the ones thay impacts on day to day teaching is disruption and students coming to scholl knowing thry can pick and choose which rules they follow because home will back them on the grounds they have some personal grip against teachers/school/education / authority. Stuff the impact it has on their child's education. It's more important to fight for thr child's right to wear false nails and not complete homework tasks.
it's a fundamental andwilfulmisunderstanding, at government level, of what education is and what it should be for. They think that children, like poor people, need to be brutalised into deference and compliance, and that school is about teaching them to know their place.
You really do have a massive chip on your shoulder about all things school related.

There are many systematic issues. E.g. the handling of new GCSEs was awful, the goal posts moving for students is awful.

But schools wanting an orderly environment in which children can learn is not part of a conspiracy to oppress children.
Far from it actually. Expectations, boundaries and rules set the culture and a safe environment for all the otjer stuff that goes on in school. When basic expectations are followed, teaching time is free to focus more on teaching than dealing with Timmy who thinks that because his mam says school shoes he can wear trainers then all otjer rules he thinks are pointless can be followed/not followed on a whim.

You don't seem to get that rules and boundaries and routines actually teach children how to deal with things they don't like. I did student voice last week and half a dozen 13 year olds have said they think our school marking policy is a bit pointless in places. That will be going into my report to SLT. They are challenging authority and doing it very articulately. It was great! Many things in our school have changed as a result of the students saying things. They know how to challenge and to complain in a productive way rather than whining and moping like some on this thread who seem to think strict rules means oppression and forcing people into blind obedience.

MaisyPops · 18/01/2018 06:43

*Timmy who thinks that because his mam says school shoes doesn't mean school shoes he can wear trainers then all otjer rules he thinks are pointless can be followed/not followed on a whim.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/01/2018 07:03

ReanimatedSGB

There is challenging authority and there is disrupting lessons.

Challenging authority in a constructive way is always a good thing, doing it so that it disrupts lessons and the learning of others isn't.

And I have had pupils question the way that I teach in the middle of a lesson because -insert parent of choice- says that they could and that they won't have to do the sanction because they don't agree with it.

I have changed the way that I have taught lessons because children gave up their own time to put forward various points on what I do.

Various schools that I have taught in have changed various policies due to pupils (and parents) putting forward arguments in sensible and mature ways.

And mini plenaries are quite good for lower sets and pupils with certain types of SEND

MaisyPops · 18/01/2018 07:14

Agreed boney.

Though some on this thread won't hear it because people like us who have rules and boundaries and expectations must love pushing children into blind obedience to all authorty.

The boring take on it is: 'teacher has rules and follows them so children can learn. Teacher uses time not spent dealing with disruption and whining to help children learn. Pupils trust teacher and know where they stand. It means they know they are a safe, consistent adult who cares and values them. Pupil knows if they need to raise anything that the respect is mutual and the teacher will listen to them.'

noblegiraffe · 18/01/2018 07:42

Teachers don't particularly want blind obedience, what they would usually like is for kids to follow basic and reasonable instructions first time and without arguing the toss every single sodding time. And I'm not talking about chanting or whatever, I'm talking about 'get your book out' 'take your coat off and sit down'.

Parents who teach their kids to challenge authority need to consider that actually, sometimes, this just means their kid is a pain in the arse. Schools usually have forums for kids to air genuine grievances, and for parents. Parents who want kids who aren't blindly obedient need to also teach them about when this is appropriate and inappropriate.

ppeatfruit · 18/01/2018 10:38

All children do not have the benefit of a family that cares for them, that tends to make those children not care about anything too. not forgetting the hormones rushing through the veins of even the most timid adolescent. TBH trying to get any of them learn anything is quite a battle , I'm sure that it's a waste of time and money to bother ,send them all out to work!

cantucciniamaretto · 18/01/2018 11:43

There is challenging authority and there is disrupting lessons

Chanting is disrupting lessons.

shhhfastasleep · 18/01/2018 12:54

The school I know does it was in a mess before a huge change of senior leadership following "special measures ". Lots of absenteeism, drugs, violence and general under achieving. Parents were pulling children out in droves.
It has turned around. No, I'm not keen on chanting but if it confirms to the pupils that they are in school to study and achieve and the teachers are there to make that happen then it's not the worst.
Making the school a happy place to be including encouraging a positive social side is not a bad thing.
Will the improvements last? I don't know. Will the chanting last? I doubt it. However there is an active school council and the forum for wanting to drop it is there.

Dadstheworld · 18/01/2018 13:05

All it's doing is turning the unspoken rules of school into something explicit. I don't see the harm in it, unless you disagree with the message?

MaisyPops · 18/01/2018 16:56

cantucciniamaretto
No more so than me expecting my students to follow my entry routine.

I wouldn't repeat a motto or something at the start of my lesson but all they are doing is making what would normally be implciit values explicit and having a consistent way to start each lesson in the school.

People encouraging their children to argue back, not follow rules, do what they like if they think something is pointless is far more disruptive to learning and to be honest it's often the children of people who have extreme 'bollocks to authority/school" views who are the ones usually arguing back.

Put it this way, i had a word with a group of students today because they have been unsettled at the starts of lessons since Christmas and I'm fed up with starting my lesson only for the same couple to decide not to write the date/title because 'oh is that for us?! You never said'. The entry routine is:

  1. Enter the classroom sensibly, coats off and get your books/equipment out
  2. Put the date and title (which is in the same place every lesson)
  3. Complete the starter activity which is on the board (it might be a paired task/silent quiz/discussion etc)

Same expectation for every class I teach. Yet for reasons which escape me a group of boys have decided that they know best so don't follow it, play dumb and then at other points in the lesson 10 seconds after a simple instruction like 'find 5 quotations for your essay' start chatting loudly and then claim 'eh i didn't know what we were doing/i don't get it' when challenged. Usually this is done with a smirk to suggest they think they are hilarious when the rest of the class think they're simply idiots.

Now these are normally very nice boys, usually well behaved but they've come back thinking that basic expectations can be ignored. I know when I call their parents, their parents will not be impressed because they aren't following basic instructions. Them choosing not to follow my entry routines holds up the class whilst i have to stop and wait for them to do piss easy things like find a pen because they forgot/then ask what the date is loudly for effect (because it's so funny to them... and the class look at them like 'why are you so stupid and weird? We have our GCSEs to work towards'). Since Christmas they seem to love asking thr point of doing x y z and it's great because the class put them in their place. It's hilarious. The boys have til Monday to pack it in before I call home.

The thing is their parents get how schools work and will be supportive (and the boys know that).

If their parents were like some on here I'd get my head torn off because it's up to them how they enter. Does it even matter? Why should they write the dats and title? It's their book. Not yours. You probably only want the book nice so you can show off. Well he didn't get it. How was he supposed to know that you saying 'morning everyone. Write the date and title' meant write what was on the board. How did he know it wasn't for another class who just happen to be doing exactly the same work. I wouldn't be told how to come into the office so ypu're just on a power trip and I will back my child if they want to stand up to pointless oppression by tyrants like you.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/01/2018 17:08

cantucciniamaretto
Chanting is disrupting lessons.

How do you know?

The OP hasn't said that it is.

And some forms of chanting would be encouraged by MN.

The times tables for instance.

cantucciniamaretto · 18/01/2018 17:10

Nothing is encouraged by MN, its not a hive mind.
Times tables is not chanting, its repeating. And pretty old fashioned to be rabbitting them out loud.

BoneyBackJefferson · 18/01/2018 17:11

It is chanting, you may not want to admit it but its chanting.

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