Not impressed with the daily chanting. Do other secondary schools do this?

[ReanimatedSGB]

DS is in Year 8 and he has told me that, at the start of every lesson, they all have to stand up and chant together, something along the lines of 'we promise to be good and work hard' (OK that's NOT the wording, don';t want to give exact wording in case it outs us).

Every lesson FFS. This strikes me as a waste of time (DS told me that the class took to dragging it out as much as possible in lessons no one likes) and... well. a bit creepy and cultish. AIBU?

I think if you said to a class ‘good morning class’ and expected a perfect, in unison response without any rehearsal and prompting you’d be disappointed. It would also be artificial.

Maybe not, but, 'good morning, Mrs Giraffe' would still be a normal polite response, and probably something that has been normalised since infant school. With any other chant, surely the kids would be thinking what kind of weird school is this. Especially any who have previously been at another secondary.

So normalising a chant at infant school is fine, but not at secondary?

But it didn't take him many minutes for him to work out what the new head's new rules were all about, and the chance of the school ever arousing any feelings of loyalty in him plummeted from the first day of the new regime.

I being stupid here...but what does this "loyalty to a school" actually mean?

A school with a lot of silly little rules that areonlyin place as either window dressing or so that inadequate adults can attempt to wield power by making kids obeyno matter whatis not a good school. It doesn't have a good atmosphere and having to argue with kids about the length of their hair or the colour of their shoelaces wasteseveryone'stime

And yet again we are back to 'OP thinks rules are silly so why enforce them'. I aim to be sparing with the phrase 'that parent' because it can be overused but you actually sound like that parent.

The way not to waste everyone's time is for parents to send their children to school dressed appropriately in line with uniform. Thr way not to waste time is to teach your children that you don't always like rules but that's life. You teach them that if they want to raise a concern or objection they do so in a way tjat isn't being argumentative because 'i don't like it'.

Kids try it on because they're teenagers and we did the same. I had a teachrr who must have taken loads of jewellery from me when i was a student. Eventually i realised that life is so much easier if you accept that in life there are rules and you won't always agree with them.

The thing is I don't waste lots of time. Most students you remind of the rules say 'sorry miss' and sort it out.
The only students who are ridiculously argumentative and try to derail a lesson on why being told to wear school shoes breaches their human rights are the ones who have parents of a similar view to you. Aka 'eeeeh i don't like that rule. It's pointless so why follow it' / 'nah you're bot doing a detention for that! My lad was ONLY...' and so on.

Where schools go down the route of needing prescriptive measures it is often because the odd one or 2 parents who think school rules are pick and mix are a sizable chunk in the school.

It's the same with uniform. Parnets get told wear black non-clingy, non fashion trousers. Most parents follow the uniform. Some gobshites don't because 'my girl can't find any other trousers other than these leggings which are clearly not trousers'. Repeat with school shoes vs trainers. = school gets fed up and goes single supplier because then there is no arguing whether something is or isn't the uniform.

A school like mine doesn't have to have tight uniform rules and single supplier because we have a uniform which is strictly followed. We don't have to have set lesson formats or prescribed entry routines because 90+% of our students behave and the type of ridiculous parents ive had in othet schools are far and few between. They exist but don't dominate so the culture is still good.

So normalising a chant at infant school is fine, but not at secondary?
I don't think a polite 'good morning' is a chant - it is pretty normal everywhere, but very small children are very accepting of just about anything - teenagers, not so much!

Training kids to say 'good morning Mrs X' at the start of the lesson is as much learned behaviour as 'We're going to work hard and be good'. Kids are trained to do all sorts of things at school.

Whether it's possible to get teenagers to do this is a different question. They certainly chant stuff in MFL lessons.

So if the teacher said 'what are we going to do today' and the class responded "work hard and be good!" Then that's fine?

It would be pretty unlikely, wouldn't you think? 30 kids are going to spontaneously answer that? I would have imagined the more likely response would be "how the fuck should we know" muttered under their breath than that....

Er, the kids are being told to do this chant. It's not spontaneous, see the OP.

“That parent”
“Snowflakes”

Bingo!

BashStreetKid
Because sometimes people ARE 'that parent' and usually 'those parents' start spouting nonsense about how 'people only say that parent to stop parents having a voice / because teachers are power hungry / because nobody can criticise teachers'.

To be 'that parent' isn't someone understandably raising a concern in an aporopriate manner through the approrpiate chanels.

To be 'that parent' involves some/all of the following:

• picks and chooses what rules their child has to follow. Bonus points if the child goes around saying 'but my mam said...'
• when a child breaks a rule, 'that parent' complains because 'they were ONLY... They were JUST... I don't give my permission for a detention so I have told them they won't be going'.
• When there is a query, instead of contacting thr teacher for a chat, 'that parent' (possibly having spoken to other 'those parents on Mn') decide that thr small question is some world drama which must go straight to HOD / SLT /The Head.
• If they need to make a complaint, that parent won't follow procedure. They'll go to the head, governors, LA and even threaten to call ofsted usually over something which could be dealt with quicklu and effectively if they stopped being 'absolutely fuming' for 5 minutes and tried a spot of rational thinking.
• If a situation has come up and their child says 'i didn't do anything', most parents even if they believe their child are open to the fact that even good kids can (and do) tell half stories or partial truths. When most people want to talk to the teacher, they approach the call with an open mind that maybe there's a little more to the picture that they are missing. 'That parent' never entetains that idea. Their child would never have done anything wrong and their child would never lie. Anyone who joins a thread saying 'if tjat's the full.picture then the teacher is wrong, but be aware there may be more to it' is obviously a teacher and that proves how teachera believe thaylt nobody must ever believe a child ever and no wonder abuse doesn't get reported when adults think all children are liars.
• That parent thinks that if they harrass staff or bully them or sling their weight around then they caj push people out of jobs.
• That parent tends to put the blame for their own child's behaviour onto the teacher. If tje teacher sanctions the child however then the teacher is wrong. The child was only misbehaving because the teacher is rubbish and can't do their job.

• Those parents like to think they are cool and antiestablishment when they prattle on the same few lines like 'yeah but why tell students to correct their uniform it's a waste of time. After all how does a pair of trainers/fake nails affect your brain?' They like to say it like they are the holders of some unknown holy grail and they offer some enlightened alternative perspective.
• Trying to explain organisational culture only gets you accused of brainwashing by those parents
• Saying as a teacher you couldn't care less about a uniform or not, but if there is one then it should be followed proves you're a bully.

• Those parents love going on about how teachers are apparently gods, nobody can criticise them etc when really lots can be sorted out by being a reasonable human being without starting stupid mumsnet threads like omg my child nust got a detention because she came to school wearing false nails. I mean it clearlu says they aren't allowed in the uniform policy which is clear on the website, prospectus, end of term newsletter reminders, planners (and is common sense!) But it's a bit pointless putting them in detention. Now Shelly has to miss dance which theu actually enjoy because some teacher has given her a detention for a stupid rul which doesn't even matter! if nails/trainers/any other thing which those parents whine about doesn't matter then it'll be no problem following a clear unifprm code

Those parents get annoyed at single supplier uniforms or prescriptive behaviour management systems completely oblivious to the fact that it's the attitudes and approaches of parents like them who have meant the school needs to move to such an approach to try and break the cycle of 'do what you like when it suits you'.

What an excellent example of how a petty tyrant's mind works, Maisy. Everyone who questions authority must be an ignorant ill-mannered yob of a parent who doesn't know her place and encourages her child to be obnoxious...
At no point did I say I would be giving the school my opinion of this silly chant, and upthread I pointed out that my suggestion to DS was: it's silly, but it would be good manners to go along with it for the meantime.
The problem with single-supplier uniform is that the suppliers almost always charge more than supermarkets do for garments that are often less hard-wearing, poorer quality etc. It's unnecessary in the extreme, and very hard on lower income parents (particularly when DC rip their overpriced school trousers a week before payday - WTF are you supposed to do? Keep them home and have the attendance officer up your arse? Send them to school in the nearest equivalent you can get and have them either sent home or stuck in isolation for the day?).
It's good for children and parents to question rules that seem arbitrary or downright nasty, and perfectly reasonable for a group of parents who object to some aspect of the school to escalate the matter to the governors, the LA and the local paper if it can't be resolved. As part of training for adulthood, what's wrong with 'You can take action if you are being mistreated; you do not have to submit unquestioningly all the time.'?

OK, Maisy, how exactly does it help learning for teachers to spend time checking on children's shoes and hairstyles?

And your entire post goes way, way beyond the simple issue of objecting to children wasting their time on mindless chanting. How does that make anyone "that parent"?

What an excellent example of how a petty tyrant's mind works, Maisy. Everyone who questions authoritymustbe an ignorant ill-mannered yob of a parent who doesn't know her place and encourages her child to be obnoxious
Tyrant? Far from it thank you.
And as I mentioned quite clearly, there is a massive difference between a parent raising concerns or queries and tje attitude of being 'that parent'. which was the whole point of my post explaining to anoyher poster the difference between being 'that parent' and a reasonable parent raising concerns
Amusingly, one of the things I pointed out was that 'those parents' are the ones who go for the 'boohoo teachers hate being questioned and think you should bow down and never question'... ... which is exactly your response, sort of proving my point.

bash
Of coursr my post was beyond.chabting a motto.
You said bingo to the phrase "that parent" being used.
I was explaining that some people ARE that parent and outlining the differences between someone who is 'that parent' and other perfectlu reasonable parents who have questions/ queries / concerns.

I have worked in schools with ridiculously prescriptive uniform, a sensible uniform but that's expected to be followed and non uniform schools. Personally, i couldn't give a damn either way about the existence of a uniform.
However, large organisations like schools need rules to work effectively. Part of that is following them even if you wouldn't personally choose them. I can't wear my facial piercing at school. It doesn't make me a better/worse teacher. It's just that's the dress code. A friend of mine has had to have laser tattoo removal to be considered for a job with an airline because they have a no tattoo policy and hers was clear on the back of her neck. Does it make her a worse cabin crew member? No. But that's life.

In the non uniform school, students had a dress code. They followed it and it was brilliant. I loved working at that school and some travelled over an hour to attend.

In another school with a uniform, you had parents being given a uniform and then rather than follow it, they would go out and buy items which were clearly not uniform and would let their chikdren come in with false nails etc.

The issue betwren the 2 schools wasn't whether they have a uniform. The issue was that in one school parents and students followed the rules and in the other the culture was 'only follow some rules as and when it suits you'.
School 2 could have had no uniform like school 1 and there would still be issues because the same parents who think 'i'll put my kid in false lashes, let them dye their hair pink rtc) would be the same people incapable of following a dress code.

I wouldn't chose to have some motto repeated at the start of my lesson. I do believe in consistency at school and depending on the school culture some schools need to use different ways to achieve it.

Some on here are very much 'i don't like rule x so my kids don't have to / i don't like y so it must be bollocks / expecting children to follow rules i don't like is brainwashing them like hitler youth' which explains why some schools need to be more regimented in their structures.

perfectly reasonable for a group of parents who object to some aspect of the school to escalate the matter to the governors, the LA and the local paper if it can't be resolved.
I have said it is reasonable to complain and follow due process.
Raising concerns or complaints following tje appropriate process is reasonable and not 'that parenty' in the slightest.

Again, you are back to 'Maisy you think people should never be challenhed' when that's not what I think at all. I just think it should be done properly.
'Those parents' (as I mentioned earlier) tend not to follow process so a class teacher issue goes straight to HOD or even the head teacher (probably having done a big education thread where other people whip up the fumingness and say 'report them! Go to the head!' ).
When the HOD/head say 'ok well speak to the class teacher' those parents decide 'nothing ia being done i'm going to the governors/LA/Ofsted'.
All they needed to do was go class teacher - HOD - Relevant member of SLT - Head (instead of deciding that they'll be so fuming that they'll go half way up the procedure straightnaway).

Authority can and should be questioned. I teach my students that.
That doesn't mean that it is reasonable to tell studebts not to follow rules they doj't fancy following.

The only students who are ridiculously argumentative and try to derail a lesson on why being told to wear school shoes breaches their human rights are the ones who have parents of a similar view to you. Aka 'eeeeh i don't like that rule. It's pointless so why follow it' / 'nah you're bot doing a detention for that! My lad was ONLY...' and so on
Your impressions of parents make me chuckle. At dc's school down south it would probably be "fackinell" instead of "Eeeeeh"

perfectly reasonable for a group of parents who object to some aspect of the school to escalate the matter to the governors, the LA and the local paper if it can't be resolved

Then they get a sadface story which gets picked up by the Daily Mail and sparks a torrent of abuse for snowflakery, and then they are forever known as 'that nob' at school.

Yes. Like this poor bugger

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3151274/Mother-furious-son-11-isolation-going-school-without-blazer-hottest-day-year.html

Omg that fan and cold flannel. I hope they got paid a lot for that photo.

I know. The paper has totally taken the piss out of them. I doubt the boy will thank his mum for going to the paper further down the line

Yeah, the news story makes the family look like twats but the twattishness was definitely on behalf of the school. FFS the kids have to bring their blazers into school and might be allowed not to wear them? This means dozens of blazers left on buses - and also, having to carry extra clothes around along with the amount of school books and stuff is pretty grim in the heat. All because some dickhead's still obsessed with 'rules are rules and obedience is everything.'

And the insistence that girls wear thick tights in hot weather? Great, a thrush epidemic...

RaspberryIce
It's only some but every area has their own variety of that type. Everyone knows it (except people who are that type who think anyone referencing that type think schools should be immune from criticism).

Our area type is very much 'eh nor. I'm not being funny but....'

I've just had a week trying to explain to a student that rolling a skirt up so short that it is higher than the shorts line on your tighys not only breaks uniform rules but also looks utterly ridiculous and flashes your pants to the world. Apparently, you don't understand miiissss!!! and even started but my mam said there's nothing wrong with my skirt to which I said i'll ask their mum if she sends her daughter out with her pants on show. I know fine well the Mum is a reasonable person who wouldn't send her kid out like that.

Every now and again though you do get some who try to argue:
eh what difference does it make?
Well, it's not uniform, it looks ridiculous, staff and students can practically/ can see their underwear and they have an attitude problem.
but it's just a skirt. Tell other students nit to lool at her if it's so offensive
Actually, the solution is your child to wear the uniform properly.
and anyway. If staff feel uncomfortable seeing girls then they are a perv who shouldn't be in school
You see the thing is, no member of staff wants to see anyonr else's underwear, be it student or staff. Your child needs to follow the uniform.
eh i don't see the deal really. Like you always hear teachers saying how much theu have to do but then you're talking to me about her skirt
Yes. Because it is one part of a wider poor attitude to learning issue where they seem to think they can pick and choose which rules to follow. That's not how it works.
aye but why should she be made to look yhr same. It doesn't affect her learning
You miss the point. Only following some rules is part of the reason your DC is having issues. They are under the impression they can decide what they'll do and when. Part of enabling students to succeed is consistency. We don't make exceptions for studnets on basic rules.
so you don't even care about her wellbeing?! She is ANXIOUS about how she looks and finally finds a way to be happy abd you want to stop her dressing herself. No wonder she isn't learning anythinh in lessons because you lot are crap. teacher refrains from pointing out it is abundantly clear where the child gets her attitude from and that this phonecall explains a lot
Clearly we aren't getting anywhere. As you clearly have an issue with whole school policies (which you signed up to), i will arrange for a member SLT to call you back.

Puts phone down.
Loses will to live

ReanimatedSGB
And the insistence that girls wear thick tights in hot weather? Great, a thrush epidemic...

or they could wear the alternate uniform...

Try this for some reading - stick with it, he does get to the point! He is a teacher who recently left teaching so can afford to be pretty blunt.

shutup
Wasn't that posted in response to a lot og fuss about a particular school in London who have been shouting about their no excuses culture?

To me there is a middle ground between 'no excuses' all silence etc and 'don't follow any rule you or ypur parent thinks is silly'.

We teach our students to asl questions, to challemge authority, to debate and to reason. We also teach them that in life organisations have rules and expectations and that you sign up to a package. When you do that you might not prefer everything but that's life.

I give the examples of schools. I wouldn't personally choose every rule in everu school i have ever worked in, but when i choose to work there i sign up to that package. That means I choose to raise concerns where appropriate and other times suck it up because that's life.