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Original poster

To think young women should consider future income and career prospects when choosing their degree?

282 replies

strengthandhonor · 08/01/2018 08:42

I post on a student forum and I see the same discussions again and again : boys talk about how much income and prospects a certain career will provide them with or what is the future of that industry while girls are all about following their passion and treat ''uni'' as a life experience with little or nothing to do with future employment prospects. No wonder the gender wage gap is still here and shows no sign of going away.

Countries like India, China and even Iran have far better results in getting girls into science, engineering and other lucrative degrees than say places like Sweden or Norway . So how can countries that year after year are trumpeted as the most gender equal societies on the planet have such awful outcomes especially when compared to medieval type patriarchies ? Why does reducing the social factors cause such imbalance in outcomes instead of equalizing them? What are we doing wrong as parents and as a society?

OP posts:
Battleax · 08/01/2018 11:06

Are there are a lot of parents scraping by in a horrible home and telling their DC "do what you love"?

And yes I think there probably are. I wouldn't call those "horrible homes", though. (Maybe "cheap housing".)

A lot of success comes from passion. Some people do love Maths or Accounting. Not everyone can, and not everyone can be good at the same things.

Snowdrop18 · 08/01/2018 11:07

Battleax - if you are saying you turned it around, I'd love to hear your story (but of course I realise this is a public forum and you might not want to share it).

Scabbersley - exactly. The "do what you love" types who are now on the bones of their arse in my network are the ones who don't have jobs because they wrecked their early career doing the thing they love and it didn't pay enough or they didn't succeed - which honestly I think is no reflection on them, given how things like TV and publishing work. And content creation pay is getting lower by the day.

lulu12345 · 08/01/2018 11:08

Hear hear, I thoroughly agree. Too many girls (and boys for that matter) have no role models or people giving them sensible advice about this. (And I speak as someone from a v poor quality school and working class background who luckily stumbled into a professional career by wondering what jobs paid a lot..)

What is the state of careers advice in schools? Does it usefully guide pupils towards the jobs of the future?

This is bigger than just a feminist issue actually (although I agree it is) - this goes to the heart of the UK’s productivity problems.

AgnesSkinner · 08/01/2018 11:09

I was a (Masters degree qualified) engineer. It really wasn’t well paid at all, especially given the long hours, weekend working and travel involved. I enjoyed it for a while, but it just wasn’t compatible with having a family life.

LoniceraJaponica · 08/01/2018 11:10

I agree lulu
I think careers advice in schools could be better.

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:10

boys talk about how much income and prospects a certain career will provide them with or what is the future of that industry while girls are all about following their passion and treat ''uni'' as a life experience with little or nothing to do with future employment prospects

So what are you saying OP? That girls are being a bit silly about UNI whereas boys have it all on lockdown?

I don't think you can judge girls by what's written on an internet forum. Maybe the boys passion is maths and engineering? Perhaps they are following their passion just as much as the girls. Perhaps they will get a shock when in the real world and don't get that job that they think they are now entitled to.

Battleax · 08/01/2018 11:10

Not really "turned it around" just kept going. Lots of jobs are like that. Poor in your twenties, some luck involved. (Or not - some jobs just have that "poor, poor, poor, made it!" progression structure).

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:13

No, the people I know on the bones of their arse didn't work hard at all in anything, let alone something they loved. I do know a couple of actors who are struggling also but I think we can all agree that acting and 'being a writer' are probably not the most financially secure of careers. On the other hand, those I knew who went to theatre school on the technical side all did rather well and still work in the industry.

As I've said before, the woman I know who lives the most enviable lifestyle owns a chain of hairdressers. She went to uni and did a fashion degree.

BarbarianMum · 08/01/2018 11:13

I don't think striving for wealth and status makes a good foundation for a worthwhile or happy life. Certainly wouldn't advise my sons to base their career plans on what will earn them the most. And the idea that you can make a pile as a 3rd rate physicist or engineer is a little far fetched tbh, you do better in the job market if you are at least competant and interested in your chosen field.

reallyanotherone · 08/01/2018 11:14

I agree with geekgirl.

STEM is not a lucrative career. There seems to be an impression that it is for some reason. While it is flexible to some extent it is not family friendly. There is also no job security, it’s only ever 1 and 3 year contracts.

I worked in cancer research. Very few people have long careers, they get fed up with shite pay, long hours and at risk jobs. There seems to be a perception that we should work for the “honour” of it.

Put it this way, i left after a phd and two post docs-nearly 15 years- for an entry level position in the nhs because the pay and conditions were better.

I would never encourage anyone into science for the pay and career. All my uni friends with really good jobs did english, history etc.

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:14

Actually not even a uni

an ex poly as they are referred to on here with optional curl of the lip

CrazyExIngenue · 08/01/2018 11:15

I'm in communications/journalism/marketing and there is NO money in it unless you get lucky and are A) very, very good at your job and work on a commission basis or B) get hired in a STEM based industry.

Otherwise, you're one of thousands of marketing/PR/English grades fighting for a few low paying jobs.

While STEM isn't the only option, the STEM industry, it's products, innovation and education, is what drives economies forward and with the death of fossil fuels on the horizon more economies will be investing in sustainable energy sources, which is STEM related (obviously).

While STEM careers aren't always high paying, what they are is generally stable and always in demand. An important thing these days.

So, while I would never force my kids to pursue a STEM career I would advise them to take an interest in, and educate themselves where possible, in the sciences. It certainly helped me get my career.

Jasmin82 · 08/01/2018 11:16

Snowdrop, I have only my student finance and what I get from the few shifts I work in hospitality, and my dog walking/pet sitting. My DM was a cleaner in the NHS and my DF was a CNC turner. We weren't well off, no one in the family is, yet we all place happiness at a higher value than money. Maybe it won't see any of us in a big house with loads of cars and lots of holidays, but that isn't important to us. I haven't been on holiday for years as every bit of money I get is already allocated for bills, food, business costs, uni costs.
I know for a fact that my 2 first choices of specialisation are not going to pay huge amounts of money (none of my choices will), but I'll be doing something I love and enjoy.
So, no it isn't only said by those with lots of money. But thanks for thinking I'm loaded Wink

Original poster
strengthandhonor · 08/01/2018 11:16

*Again , this is not about STEM, it's about girls in the West making ''feminine'' choices instead of ''masculine'' ones like in non-Western countries. The only reason I mentioned STEM in the other countries is because that's where the money is, especially when compared with typically female dominated jobs. Girls in the West stay away from high stress, high reward, competitive fields, even in medicine for example (where women are now the majority) only a few percent of brain or heart surgeons are women.

Theory says that eliminating social barriers should result in equal outcomes because the sexes are exactly the same : everyone is ''blank slated'' and gender is an illusion perpetrated by patriarchal conspirators. However the theory seems to have completely failed, even in places that have been feminist bastions for decades like Sweden. *

OP posts:
BarbarianMum · 08/01/2018 11:17

How can you make such sweeping statements and keep a straight face? There are a huge variety of jobs within STEM. Quite a few are family friendly - although, as in many other fields, these are not generally the ones that are best paid.

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:17

"Girls in the West stay away from high stress, high reward, competitive fields,"

good!

Can't think of anything worse!

Battleax · 08/01/2018 11:21

Girls in the West stay away from high stress, high reward, competitive fields, even in medicine for example (where women are now the majority) only a few percent of brain or heart surgeons are women.

Maybe if there's anything innate, it's the same thing that is alleged to make women better multitaskers and better communicators. Maybe women tend towards seeking balance.

UnitedKungdom · 08/01/2018 11:22

Yeah because it's a great balance when you can't afford to work because childcare is more than you make and your DH is a bit of a jerk but you can't really afford to leave.

IrkThePurist · 08/01/2018 11:22

If you really want women to succeed, you have to stop training girls to be compliant and nice, and you have to get men to move over and make room.

We dont have equality, we cant even guarantee women only toilets. You only have to look at our Govt to see it runs on nepotism, not merit.

LemonysSnicket · 08/01/2018 11:23

Well, I got a first class degree and a Distinction MA in literature ... I would’ve failed STEM ( failed my Chen A level for one eg). I don’t see my mother as having failed as a parent, she would rather I succeeded in something I enjoyed.

Not everything is about £££

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:23

Yeah because it's a great balance when you can't afford to work because childcare is more than you make and your DH is a bit of a jerk but you can't really afford to leave

that's got very little to do with career

If you have a happy marriage then this wouldn't be an issue.

UnitedKungdom · 08/01/2018 11:24

What's women only toilets got to do with equality!😅 Its a segregation issue.

Scabbersley · 08/01/2018 11:25

Its also not a good balance when you have to work all the hours in the day just to get taken seriously and so you never see your family. That's shit. For both women and men.

UnitedKungdom · 08/01/2018 11:26

Scabbersley, I completely disagree. The first and most fundamental form of independence for a woman comes from being financially independent. The second one is choosing a good partner which is not half as critical if you got the first one right.

TooManyUserNames · 08/01/2018 11:26

I could be earning double possibly triple what I do now. But I want to see my children grow up. As a solicitor in a large firm who is earning good money and has an eye on promotions it is HARD to do both. Possible if one has a lot of family help or a SAH parent.

I could let DH be the stay at home one, of course, but I would be miserable. We tried it, I know.

So I earn less, am over qualified in my role and am happy. My job is quite interesting. When the children are bigger I will rethink.

It's hard. I do feel I have failed in promoting equality sometimes. Society isn't set up fairly.