To think young women should consider future income and career prospects when choosing their degree?

[strengthandhonor]

I post on a student forum and I see the same discussions again and again : boys talk about how much income and prospects a certain career will provide them with or what is the future of that industry while girls are all about following their passion and treat ''uni'' as a life experience with little or nothing to do with future employment prospects. No wonder the gender wage gap is still here and shows no sign of going away.

Countries like India, China and even Iran have far better results in getting girls into science, engineering and other lucrative degrees than say places like Sweden or Norway . So how can countries that year after year are trumpeted as the most gender equal societies on the planet have such awful outcomes especially when compared to medieval type patriarchies ? Why does reducing the social factors cause such imbalance in outcomes instead of equalizing them? What are we doing wrong as parents and as a society?

oh dear
that worries me OP, I mean that women in particular aren't thinking about future earnings

when I was at uni there was always some rich kid wafting around who didn't have to worry about it - could it be that those are the ones you're seeing post on the forum?

I did a degree that led directly to my current occupation, largely because my parents made it very clear to me that my preferred option, history, would go down like a cup of cold sick. I still wish that I'd done it, not least because now that I'm in the relevant occupation I can see that whether you have my specific degree or not makes zero difference to your career prospects and earning power.

Less true for STEM roles, but this is definitely true. For most jobs outside STEM, especially those requiring professional qualifications, you can access them with any degree. For that reason I’d always encourage my kids to do science and maths A-levels if they have any interest in them, because it keeps their options open.

However, my DD - though good at those subjects - has no interest in them so it’s far more important to choose the subjects that interest you.

I think we have to start right at the beginning and look at how we present all jobs from an early age.
I have gone in many schools to teach about architecture and the fact that I work in construction is a surprise to many kids (and more scarily) their teachers.
I often push the fact that kids can do anything they want and there is no such thing as boys jobs and girls jobs but it's an uphill struggle even with primary school kids. It's not so much the kids but their adult role models, parents and even some teachers are very stuck on this and this rubs off on the kids.

My DD and her friends always said the men at uni were hopeless at planning. Maybe they choose the right degrees but she said the building CV things tended to be dominated by the women unless parents were pulling strings.

The question is whether the girl’s behaviour is the one that should be changed / will ultimately lead to them leading less fulfilled and happy lives than their male counterparts.

I’m a woman (originally from Central Europe) and I did consider employment, career prospect and financial security when choosing a degree.

I earn more than my DH and I’ve finally managed to find a job that doesn’t make me want to gouge my eyes out. It’s fine.
Decent salary, I get to spend weekends with my children and DH, I don’t need to have an overnight kit in my office anymore...

But I will tell my DDs to do something they’ll genuinely enjoy. Or at least see themselves enjoying it.

I did STEM - both because I enjoyed it, and because I knew that I would be able to get a job at the end of it. Luckily I'm stubborn or I might not have got through though - it's tough being one of 3 women in a lecture of 100 people, or the only woman in your lab.

I, too, don't understand what the average 18 year old gets from doing (for instance) a philosophy degree - it feels like something that you should come back to once you've lived a bit - and what really perplexes me, is that even now you have to pay for it, people are still choosing these degrees.

But, to each their own.

I do also agree that by the time children are choosing their degree subjects it's too late - girls are dissuaded from STEM far earlier than that.

And like I said earlier itt, this is not about STEM, it's about boys wanting to gain wealth and social status while girls have little interest in it. It's almost like we're animals and males have to prove themselves worthy of passing on their genes while females just have to wait and see who the ''winner'' is. Almost like our completely different sexual reproduction systems and hormones have a huge influence on our personalities. I don't know what to think anymore...

Agree with you, OP. Everyone should, in fact. It's a very expensive investment for their futures. Having said that they hopefully do enjoy and learn from their 'life experience' but that should be secondary.

It's almost like we're animals and males have to prove themselves worthy of passing on their genes while females just have to wait and see who the ''winner'' is.

But we're supposed to have a civilisation now, and the fact of the matter is, that women do need to earn money - look at the number of single mothers in poverty. We need to emphasise to our daughters that it is important to be able to support yourself, and to our sons, that status and competition isn't the be all and end all.

OP you said what are we doing wrong as a society - I'd argue that girls are being taught, from when they are tiny, that they are supposed to value their looks above all else. The example someone gave about toys is correct. Anything marketed to girls is usually horrendous and I used to shrug and think parents wouldn't fall for it but apparently they do.

India, China and even Iran

Because the way girls are treated in these countries is.... oh that's right, as second class citizens. Doesn't hold up your argument.

Because girls are bombarded by 'girly' images in the media e.g. TV, social media and magazines. Take your pick. It sometimes seems that the only positive female image is thin, half dressed and waiting for the 'right man' to come along.

Sure there are some women shown in TV programmes in STEM, but they are mostly US programmes. Even then the female IT roles show them as weird e.g. Criminal Minds and NCIS.

Countries like India, China and even Iran have far better results in getting girls into science, engineering

yes, let them get on with it.

There's almost no point in trying to compete. All the girls in top set maths at my dds academic independent school are chinese or asian. This country is absolutely brilliant at literature and creativity. Its time we stopped thinking of those subjects as second class.

oh and sport. Basically things that the Chinese don't do!!

It's almost like we're animals and males have to prove themselves worthy of passing on their genes while females just have to wait and see who the ''winner'' is.

I can only speak from my own experience, and the experience of the women I know, but generally I find that boys are either raised to be, or they naturally are, risk takers. They don't have to worry about failing, because they are raised to only worry about themselves.

Women are raised to take the stable route. In the past, and maybe still for some strata's of society, the stable route was through marriage. Now, given that most uni's are 70% women, it's through education and gainful employment. That's because we are raised to think and worry about potential children and how we will take care of them.

There is probably also an aspect of genetic pre-disposition and instinct to this as well.

I think the gender pay gap is as much to do with the continuing difficulty in combing full-time work with raising a family than it is with degree choice. Plenty of women study law, for example, but then find it impossible to continue to work the ridiculously long working hours once they have children. The stat up-thread about only 1/3 of female Ivy League graduates working full -time is a case in point. My friend lives in the US and says that part-time or flexible work is almost impossible to find which is why you see so many highly-qualified women becoming SAHMs.

I have a friend who works in Holland, as another example, where many people, male and female, work 4-day weeks. I don't know what the data is for women working in STEM jobs there, but I know my friend finds it easy to hold down a well-paid job because her workplace is family-friendly.

Because the way girls are treated in these countries is.... oh that's right, as second class citizens. Doesn't hold up your argument.

Some of them may be so driven because of that. Because there’s an increased necessity to be successful if they want to be seen as important members of society.

Scabbersley "This country is absolutely brilliant at literature and creativity. Its time we stopped thinking of those subjects as second class."

increasingly less useful for earning enough to live reasonably. I'm not talking about any luxuries either.

I've never got the whole push for STEM subjects either. Mine has long hours and low pay and requires ridiculous qualifications. I believe a small part of women choosing nursing and teaching and those jobs is because no one can question their right to do the job. You have a nursing degree, you ARE a nurse. I have a STEM degree but subtly it's not quite as good as the qualifications the next person ( often male) has. Constantly having to prove you are qualified is hard work.

This isn't India or Iran, nobody will force them to be SAHM's

Can we be a bit less complacent about this please?

MEN bully women, sabotage contraception, oppress their wives...

Then the ECONOMY forces other non-choices on top.

So yes there are women in the UK even today being forced to be SAHMs, to be various things they'd rather not be or do.

increasingly less useful for earning enough to live reasonably

I have friends who work for newspapers, in the film industry (lots in film and tv for some reason), and women friends who are high up in publishing. All earn good money and are very happy. In fact the most well off and independent woman I know owns a very successful chain of hairdressers. In contrast, I know two miserable and frazzled accountants and one lab manager who absolutely hates her job. My own experience of course, but I would NEVER stop my dds going into a humanities/creative degree or job if that's what they loved.

Both dh and I come from scientific backgrounds and have always tried to encourage our 3 dcs to do science or at least be open minded to it when choosing degree subjects
both dds hated science at school ( maybe it's the way it's taught?)....they're both severely dyslexic and dyscalculic- although so is my dh...they just 'didn't get science '
However eldest dd did a humanities degree and now has a well paid teaching job in China ( has £1k left over each month which she is saving)
Younger dd is doing a business degree and is very ambitious...currently on her placement year with an IT company so is getting real life experiences
STEM isn't for everyone and women should not be felt to be lacking in ambition if they are unable or not willing to study these subjects
Ds is doing an environmental based degree subject but he too just didn't 'get maths or physics '

oh, and advertising! That pays megabucks if my SIL is anything to go by!

STEM isn't for everyone and women should not be felt to be lacking in ambition if they are unable or not willing to study these subjects

hear hear abso bloody lutely

also the Chinese are just BETTER at it than we are. What is the point of trying to compete?? The Chinese kids at my friends sons uni are in the library or lab ALL THE TIME. They do no sport, very little socialising. They will no doubt do very well in their degree (they all want firsts) and get good jobs. Would you want to live like that? I wouldn't

disclaimer this is what my friend and friends son have told me of course it doesn't reflect on all Chinese uni students!!