To think young women should consider future income and career prospects when choosing their degree?

[strengthandhonor]

I post on a student forum and I see the same discussions again and again : boys talk about how much income and prospects a certain career will provide them with or what is the future of that industry while girls are all about following their passion and treat ''uni'' as a life experience with little or nothing to do with future employment prospects. No wonder the gender wage gap is still here and shows no sign of going away.

Countries like India, China and even Iran have far better results in getting girls into science, engineering and other lucrative degrees than say places like Sweden or Norway . So how can countries that year after year are trumpeted as the most gender equal societies on the planet have such awful outcomes especially when compared to medieval type patriarchies ? Why does reducing the social factors cause such imbalance in outcomes instead of equalizing them? What are we doing wrong as parents and as a society?

@Battleax probably a lot of truth in that too. Of these schools 5 were public/grammar schools and the other 3 were comps so a mixture if that helps.

I've been getting increasingly aware as I've moved up the ladder that I am in a minority.

I started with 50% women in my intake cohort.

Now when I am sitting in rooms with clients, the other side and lawyers getting deals negotiated and closed - I am almost always the only women.

When i'm presenting to boards of clients - I am quite often the only women and always < 50% except for one memorable time when the board was majority women (a quasi gov org in Scotland).

I didn't enjoy doing those rounds of schools. Its a lot of pressure. I get a few years off now before we have to do it all again.

@corythatwas

No degree is an automatic ticket to a well paid job. A degree is definitely not enough even these days let a lone in 20 years. An MSc even isn't. I was just passing on what I'd heard on the grapevine, though could all be madness...The one certainty is that technology will continue to evolve and a knowledge of it is essential to any job

YY Fluffy. It's not just moving up the ladder, I'm certainly not in a minority as a woman at work but I'm in a minority being in a non-support role and
over the age of 35. Can't think why that would be?

*Considering nearly all well paid jobs (most jobs that arn't in the service industry at all for that matter) will be in the STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering, medicine)

That is TOTAL bollocks.*

But it's not. Science and technology is what drives economies forward. Most of the large industries are in someway connected to STEM, i.e. energy, fossil fuels, manufacturing. Just because you don't directly work in a STEM job, doesn't mean you aren't working in the STEM industry. And generally, working in the STEM industry results in higher pay.

It's a robust site, swearing is allowed, if you don't like it go elsewhere.

I think what you posted was rubbish. I don't hold much store in schools careers advice. Teachers don't have much experience of the more general working world.

There are lots and lots of well paid careers outside of STEM and in the future, many STEM jobs are actually at risk from the next round of digital innovation. Creative and human facing jobs are actually much likely to be at risk.

IT skills are important, but that doesn't mean studying STEM at the expense of other subjects.

I may be a traitor to the sisterhood but I couldn't fucking wait to ditch science and maths subjects. I think kids should have totally free choice (within timetabling and resource constraints) of subjects after Y9, nothing compulsory unless you haven't reached a certain level of Maths and English by the end of Y9.

The poster in question said that all well paid jobs, in fact all jobs not in the service industry will be in STEM

That is bollocks. Calling that out isn't the same as saying STEM expertise isn't important.

Can't think of anything worse than a job in a lab or an office with a load of men who resent you being there. Sorry, that's how I feel about most high powered STEM careers

This attitude is weird. I work in STEM and many labs I have worked in are completely female dominated, especially anywhere specialising in healthcare/medical science. I'm currently in a male dominated sector but the general attitude is that foremost we are all scientists and I have found the sector very welcoming.

What I have found in 25 years in STEM is that once a sector becomes female dominated, senior management (usually male or single workaholic female) start finding ways to replace those well-paid skilled STEM women with low-paid staff e.g., by downgrading roles.

Thus the gender pay gap is maintained however hard women work.

@CrazyExIngenue thank you for explaining what I was incapable I must add I have a learning difficulty so my spelling and explanations can be confusing or a just generally bad. It's exactly what i meant basically and what had been told to me at these schools but also at my university where I am currently doing a part-time MSc as I was unable to find any work in my 'creative' sector.

There is genuinely no agenda from my tutors and other mature students studying post grad qualifications who I have discussed these things with, it's just kind of a fact that under that STEM umbrella, so many jobs fall and will fall in the future. There is obviously competition within these areas too which is why people are struggling to find jobs even with their STEM degrees. But they way things are out there in the job market they may now need a masters a phd, who knows! for jobs that even 10 years ago you could get with a 2nd class degree in a humanities or art subject

STEM stands for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics, not medicine as some posters have stated above.

@LaurieMarlow that's much better! I agree with much of this and it was an interesting read always very keen to get the inside track on education, technology, anything really! just needed more of an explanation so I could also learn why you thought it was 'bollocks'. I just assumed you were a troll by that but now I actually totally dig what you say and you another strong woman to debate and learn from

@MissWilmottsGhost yes, Maths or Medicine I was told just always think 'medicine' because thats my daughter interest at the moment

@MissWilmottsGhost that is so interesting and so depressing at the same time. I am having another daughter in February/March and I know there is worse in the world to worry about and here in th UK we are very privileged to have the chance to worry about their careers/futures ect. It makes me feel so sad that even highly skilled (in any sector!) our daughters always have these things to contend with even in 2018. I have done many jobs but originally trained as a wheel throwing batch production potter to give you context. Now that's a dead industry

Until the robots take all our jobs

PP may have a point that all jobs will be in STEM, or at least require knowledge and skills previously only required in the sciences. Robots (automation, computers etc.) are taking on a lot of jobs traditionally done by people, not just in STEM, but also in the creative arts and humanities. For example, CAD is more often used now instead of pencils and paint, and historians follow family trees using software for analysing genetics.

Whatever jobs are left for humans you can guarantee that, on average, women will be doing the lower paid ones. IME the pay gap has a lot more to do with women working part time after having children while employers are still fixated on 40+ hour weeks. It is this that restricts women's careers more than men's, and until flexible working by both parents is the norm women will always end up with lower salaries on average, whatever sector they work in.

I've been getting increasingly aware as I've moved up the ladder that I am in a minority.

Yup. I took a Bachelor of Journalism way back when. There were 18 women and 2 men. Now, 20 years later, I'm surrounded by men and all most of the women I graduated with are no longer working in the field, or even a related field, and are instead selling Forever Living products on FB.

Ooh I would love to be a potter potteryprincess all that squishy clay to play with but I went into STEM because I did need to be able to support myself, I needed a decent wage as I never expected a man to take care of me, all the men I knew growing up were crap. As it happened I met lovely DH who probably would take care of me, but I prefer independence

STEM is not so well paid for either sex as people seem to think, if you want a high salary don't be a scientist, do something that involves money. I have no regrets though, I love technology and the natural world so I get paid for doing what I love

Ooh I would love to be a potter potteryprincess all that squishy clay to play with smile but I went into STEM because I did need to be able to support myself, I needed a decent wage as I never expected a man to take care of me, all the men I knew growing up were crap. As it happened I met lovely DH who probably would take care of me, but I prefer independence

Is that supposed to sound as incredibly bitchy as it does?

@MissWilmottsGhost yes yes and YES! Even potters need serious technology and science knowledge now. Especially as regards design, and the way these things can be produced (3d printing, laser cutting ect ect). The ambition needed in the creative industries now is crazy. So many artists I know trying to compete in their industries have to have very advanced knowledge of technology already, and all the 'successful' (understand we can measure success by happiness as well but in this context lets just assume I mean making enough money to live, especially in cities) creatives/artists are working with all sorts of technology every day that 20 years ago not only didn't exhist but wasn't involved in their industries at all. Fashion, Art, Ceramics, Glass, Metals, any crafts even for that matter, to play with the big boys these days technology and engineering can be very very helpful or important

@MissWilmottsGhost my Msc is in 'Information Management' so I have completely changed my career prospects I hope (It basically is the masters you have to do to become a 'librarian' now and is CILIP approved). People who want to be corporate librarians, medical librarians and well as public and school librarians, and even want to work in archiving, digital collation, museums ect now do this qualification to try and achieve this. Times are changing so much that even 20 years ago I could actually have a shot as a 'potter' at designing for big companies that out source their ceramics after doing batch production in a factory ect. These days I'd definitely need a post grad qualification in product design, I.T, coding ect to be able to achieve this.

One of our modules is HTML coding to give more insight and that's the easy part...

Apparently that's another advisory for our daughters... Teach them coding! Probably not true though as html will become redundant too or something

My brother is a molecular cell biologist and my mother was a nurse and then a science teacher.... sigh...wish I had followed in yours and their foot steps in some ways @MissWilmottsGhost

Clay can always be squished in retirement. But genuinely back in the day it was actually regarded as a serious skill as it really does take about 15 years to get good enough for batch production

I'm not fussed about coding. Most kids won't even know what a computer is in five years

Most kids won't even know what a computer is in five years

Eh?