To think young women should consider future income and career prospects when choosing their degree?

[strengthandhonor]

I post on a student forum and I see the same discussions again and again : boys talk about how much income and prospects a certain career will provide them with or what is the future of that industry while girls are all about following their passion and treat ''uni'' as a life experience with little or nothing to do with future employment prospects. No wonder the gender wage gap is still here and shows no sign of going away.

Countries like India, China and even Iran have far better results in getting girls into science, engineering and other lucrative degrees than say places like Sweden or Norway . So how can countries that year after year are trumpeted as the most gender equal societies on the planet have such awful outcomes especially when compared to medieval type patriarchies ? Why does reducing the social factors cause such imbalance in outcomes instead of equalizing them? What are we doing wrong as parents and as a society?

I think the gender pay gap is as much to do with the continuing difficulty in combing full-time work with raising a family than it is with degree choice. Plenty of women study law, for example, but then find it impossible to continue to work the ridiculously long working hours once they have children. The stat up-thread about only 1/3 of female Ivy League graduates working full -time is a case in point. My friend lives in the US and says that part-time or flexible work is almost impossible to find which is why you see so many highly-qualified women becoming SAHMs.

Who says that women are the ones who have to take time off for the kids? Plenty of men would love to stay at home or work part time. But that would make them unambitious, wouldn't it? Look how women describe their husbands, partners or dates on MN or anywhere else in the world : good provider, great job, ambitious, driven or any other similar euphemism are almost always used by women to praise current or prospective partners. Until women stop seeing men as protectors and providers, nothing will change. But good luck altering the lizard brain, I mean with it being a few million years older than marxist theories and all...

I think the gender pay gap is as much to do with the continuing difficulty in combing full-time work with raising a family than it is with degree choice.

I agree with this & wish I had based my career on how it would work with a family. Working part time or flexi was not an option & yes I had a good salary but would never see my kids.

One of my acquaintances is a partner on about 200k, she had her son 3 years ago & is desperate to add to her family but knows she will have to give up her current role.

I have one friend who has it sorted. She didn’t go to Uni, after her A-levels she went straight into the civil service. They paid for her degree a few years later through OU so no debt. Fantastic maternity package & crucially she was able to go back into the same role at the same pay & same level part time. She has done a combi of 2,3 & 4 days, flexi hours & wfh in order to find out what fits her best now the eldest has started school. Once her kids are older she will be able to change her working pattern again & has not been overlooked for promotions. Plus she got in to the final salary pension scheme.

I have friends who work for newspapers, in the film industry (lots in film and tv for some reason), and women friends who are high up in publishing. All earn good money and are very happy.

And YY to this.

My meccano-loving, physics-gifted 18 year old DD has been saying for years that she will be a TV/Film director (not that she wants to be one, that she will be one). I believe her. I think it will make her happy. It's a very creative, fulfilling career to pursue. As Natalie Portman highlighted last night, it's also a feminist frontier still.

Why on God's green earth would I consider whinging on about sensible STEM careers to her?

The film industry is a great one to work in. Not very family friendly and very competitive, but interesting, ever changing, creative and well paid.

Why not study your passion? Why is the male model of drive for money not happiness seen as superior? It would be wise to teach young women how to make a healthy living from their passion: good business sense, confident requests for pay rises etc but not to plunge, aged 18 into a career they don't give a damn about just because it has good prospects. How bleak is that?

Can't think of anything worse than a job in a lab or an office with a load of men who resent you being there. Sorry, that's how I feel about most high powered STEM careers.

The film industry is a great one to work in. Not very family friendly and very competitive, but interesting, ever changing, creative and well paid.

Yes she's seen a cousin forging ahead in another branch of film.

Which brings us to genetics, aptitude and connections; Three other things the "study STEM" mantra overlooks

Nobody says women have to be the ones to take the time off. Some want to and everybody should have the option to work flexibly if they want to, which we don't have in this country at the moment. I used the example of Holland because it is common there for both males and females to work flexibly.

As things stand, the advice I would give my children is to aim for a career where you can easily work from home. Some of the families I know where things work well have parents who work in IT support which is well-paid but can often be done remotely.

When I was in primary school, I wrote a list of 10 jobs I wanted to do when I grew up. I was sat at a table with my cousin and his friend. The three of us looked at each other and shrugged before writing identical lists.
My cousin is now a head chef (that wasn't on our list). His friend we lost contact with after going onto secondary school. I'm currently at uni doing a Zoology degree and still deciding what I want to specialise in!
Engineer was on our list (my DF was a CNC turner). I did consider doing that at uni, but decided against it. Not because I think it's male-dominated, but because it was never my first choice of career (My first choice was vet, but none of my grades would have been good enough). During foundation year, I was set on continuing on to do Biomedical science as my degree. It was only a conversation with a friend in February last year that made me realise that, the reason I wanted to go onto that particular degree wasn't because it was what I wanted to do (13 years working as a MLA for the NHS had put paid to that idea), but because it was what my DM would have wanted me to do (fairly safe job, half decent pension...). After our conversation, I thought back to that day in primary school and thought "Well, being a vet probably won't happen, but that doesn't mean I can't go and do something working with animals."

I really think that 18 is far too young for people to be making their minds up about what they want to do.

Women would rather have a low paying job they love than a high paying one they don't.

The whole reason I decided to study zoology rather than engineering or biomedical science is because of something both my parents drummed into me: Yes, we'd love it if you went into a well-paid job. But we'd be even happier if you're in a job you love.
Surely, that's what we should be telling children in school: Yes, well-paid jobs you hate are brilliant if you're only about having loads of money. But it's much more important (and better for your mental and physical health) to be in a job you love, regardless of what it pays.
As a society, too much value is placed on having lots of money and little to no value on being happy.

"And in response to you OP, I think everyone should think long and hard about future career prospects when applying for a degree."

I agree. Some of DD's friends are looking at universities with low entry requirements just to get a degree and end up in debt without a thought for what they want to do afterwards. On the other hand DD wants to study medicine or another medical related degree because she wants to work in that field, and has chosen the right A level subjects to facilitate this.

Scabbersley the Chinese are very good at hot-housing their children, and they are high achievers academically, BUT they don't teach them to think for themselves. OH has worked in China a lot, and the people he has worked with need to be told what to do all the time. They seem to have had any any initiative drummed out of them.

This country is absolutely brilliant at literature and creativity. Its time we stopped thinking of those subjects as second class.

Does that mean everyone is going to stop wanting to pay 99p for books that have taken me 9 months to write, and mean I can pay my electricity bill? No, thought not.

Does that mean everyone is going to stop wanting to pay 99p for books that have taken me 9 months to write, and mean I can pay my electricity bill? No, thought not.

Creativity is more than that, though, isn't it?

(Yes I know the state of publishing is miserable.)

Creativity is the thing the machines won't be able to easily takeover, too. Be that content writing or decision making.

Yes, creativity is more than that. I don't think authors get paid very well be they male or female, or wherever they are based in the world.

Well from what I read on Mumsnet and chatting with women in real life, jobs are rarely loved in reality (all the happy teachers and nurses for example) and having no money and long hours and not earning enough to actually merit working with small children, making you tied to your husband financially, kinda takes the shine off 'but I'd prefer to do a job I love than one that earns well....'

ome of DD's friends are looking at universities with low entry requirements just to get a degree and end up in debt without a thought for what they want to do afterwards

I think its great that your dd is so focussed and determined. Loads aren't. I think it is absolutely fine to have no clue at 18 what you want to do. Uni is where I grew up and learned who I was. I did an English Lit degree which was pretty useless in the grand scheme of things. but which I loved and still gives me pleasure today in my 50s. I would have happily taken out a loan to do it.

yes, to some extent machines won't take over creativity - but FFS surely a student with bills to pay in future should be looking at pay upcoming, and realistically?

you can do your creative hobby in your spare time if you have some. you cannot magic up a roof over your head and food on the table. The relentless push for young people to go to uni has been very damaging - then again, it's part of a long list of what has been damaging.

There is so much that does pay outside of STEM though.

Jasmin "But it's much more important (and better for your mental and physical health) to be in a job you love, regardless of what it pays.
As a society, too much value is placed on having lots of money and little to no value on being happy."

this is the kind of statement made by people who are so well off, their children will never be in a mouldy bedsit. Otherwise there is no way you could say that!

A lot of degrees offer transferable skills though. Some of our copywriting team at work have English literature degrees. Often people with geography or history degrees end up being lawyers or accountants. One of DD's friends wants to study history and work for the foreign office afterwards.

this is the kind of statement made by people who are so well off, their children will never be in a mouldy bedsit. Otherwise there is no way you could say that!

Rubbish

There is so much that does pay outside of STEM though

of course there is!

I love the idea that if you aren't an engineer you must be living in a garret

Battleax - why is it rubbish? Are there are a lot of parents scraping by in a horrible home and telling their DC "do what you love"?

I think things are getting conflated btw

I never mentioned STEM

the OP never mentioned STEM

just saying that in case anyone thinks I am banging on about STEM, I'm not!! But if I had started - 20 years ago - in a job that I found interesting, I'd have earned about half from the start with no future security

at least I have some financial base now. I've known too many people try the "do what you love" route and end up on the bones of their arse for a long long time or forever....that bit remains to be seen.

I don't really know anyone on the bones of their arse who has any type of career tbh.

I know a few people really struggling as they never got any kind of proper job and missed out on a degree altogether, now as they age they find the temp receptionist and restaurant jobs have dried up.

Because it's exactly what I was always told, and always believed and have always said, even when I was living off 8p packet noodles in a horrible bedsit. The only difference was I said it more often and probably a touch more hysterically

I don't come from anything like wealth, either.

OH just laughs at the focus on STEM. He has been in engineering all of his life. Only a few people are very well paid. Most manufacturing is outside of the UK as it is not a growth industry here, although I would like to think it will be in the future. At least Sheffield city council are forward thinking with their Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre encouraging investment in industry.