to be annoyed that church is so boring and missing an opportunity to teach something inspiring

[somethingmustchange]

We rarely go except on visits to MIL. Each time the service is read from exactly the same booklet, the sermon teaches nothing and is just boring reciting of the bible, the hymns are dire and sung terribly by everyone including choir. I always leave feeling depressed and cross that the vicar doesn't try to inspire a new generation or give feelings of hope, happiness, community etc. Then the church goers (all 70 plus apart from maybe 2) have coffee and judge other people that are their supposed friends. How are churches supposed to have a future if they carry on like this?

Perhaps you should try a different church, petbear?

There's a lot of generalisation going on here. All churches are boring, all Christians are deluded, all atheists attack Christians, all religion is poisonous. Leaves no room for a little variety in life and a choice to let people make their own decisions and have their own preferences for things. I'd agree some religion is and has been poisonous. Some churches are boring. Some Christians are fundamentalists. Some atheists knock Christians. But equally some religion has had a hugely positive effect in society, from education to healthcare to welfare to food banks. And some churches are wonderful and inviting and welcoming and warm. And some Christians have a clearly thought out and rational faith. And some atheists are polite and respectful towards Christians.

Wrt the OP: some people like that form of worship, others don't. I can't get too worked up about it, and am glad there is so much variety in churches for people to find a place which is right for them. I hate any form of bullying or oppression and seeing or hearing of it in church makes me sick to my stomach and so angry, because it's not as its intended to be and humans have somewhere decided upon a power dynamic which makes them more important than worship.

I'm not sure what Golden's circumstsnces are but they sound horrendous and not typical of people who go to church.

My experience of Church has been mostly positive, a community of messy people who get stuff wrong and sometimes hurt each other, but also hold and comfort and love one another and untie around the hope which brings them together.

perfect

Genesis 6-9

petbear, even

are you saying that violence is the best way to stop people cruising or discussing a particular religion? That Christians should be violent too, to get their faith treated equally Did you read my post. I asked a question! I did not make any suggestion that violence was the best way to do anything!

Patriarchy, you make some valid points. But please also recognise the grassroots Christianity in practice in this country, the selfless service to the community by many with a simple faith, elderly people in knitting groups, knitting blankets for hospitals in Ethiopia, the volunteers driving round the district giving people lifts to hospital, people opening their homes to those in need. These things are not of course exclusive to Christians but there is a massive amount of good work that goes on in communities from people with a sense of selfless love for thy neighbour as taught by Christ.

CluelessClaudia

I don't doubt that a lot of good work is done by the religious, it's just not a requirement to be religious to be a good person. In fact quite the opposite. To paraphrase a famous quote:

"good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but the only way to make a good person do something bad is with religion."

Charitable giving in the UK is on the rise and has been for some time, despite a drop in religiousness amongst the population. Religion is not required to be good. If we s
waved a magic wand and wiped religion from our society completely tommorow, would there be no charity, no good works being done? Of course there would.

If the good works of religious people (which you admit are not exclusive to religion) are the only argument for continuing to go along with this supernatural charade, then it's a poor argument.

Thank you petbear, it's hard to put into words isn't It? I get so fed up of being questioned!

Well said clueless.

Now back to the OP, we agree with you! Church has to change to meet the needs of a new generation and society if people are to still relate.

No patriarchy you haven't listened again!!!! How can I put this in a way you will understand?

clueless was telling you that many good deeds and acts of selflessness and kindness are born of the moral platform religion provides. NOT All good deeds are by religious people.

Ultimately saying: those who have faith are NOT ALL BAD.

NOT saying: All those who are good have faith.

Try another church.

Btw hollow- I loved your post about having a spiritual presence and a belief in God. That’s exactly how I feel, despite the fact that I rarely attend church

Thanks areyou Faith is getting a hard time on here

Hollowtree

I have listened. Religion makes some people do some good things, agreed. It also makes a lot of people do some seriously bad things.

My position hasn't changed, you don't need religion to be good, therefore why have it at all when good deeds will happen with or without religion? Whereas it's demonstrably true that the world would be a more advanced and safer place without religion?

Because God is a presence in some people's lives. He just is.

It doesn't make you eat babies or burn people, for most of us it just makes us think "oh that's nice, thank you for this blessed life God, see you in a few decades (hopefully) and say hi to Nana for me. Cheers, Amen".

Whereas it's demonstrably true that the world would be a more advanced and safer place without religion?
Actually it's not religion that's the problem, it's mankind and how they interpret it. Delete mankind from the planet and the world would be a better place. All the best, most advanced things in the world are naturally formed. Only mankind destroys other things and each other for pleasure and greed.

Hollowtree

Your brand of woolly, Deistic spirituality is of course harmless. I understand it because I used to be where you are now. The problem is that that broad, low level acceptance of religion, while on an individual level harmless, creates a safe space for the real nasty bastards and really troublesome ideas to flourish unchallenged or at least to get a free pass.

Studies have been done in the UK as well as in other countries where horrendous acts of genocide etc are described to people, some of whom are religious, some of whom aren't, and they are asked to rate how bad the act was (typically massacring children, taking slaves or destroying a city). They will always say it's a terrible, unforgivable thing without exception. However, when the same act is described in its full context (ie something that is actually described in the Bible, the Quran or the Torah) the results are very different. People view the act in a very different way. Critically even the non religious are more likely to make excuses for, or at least rate less critically, behaviour commited in the name of religion. (The fact these things probably didn't happen is irrelevant, it people's reactions to them that is important).

This is what I'm getting at. Religion, even the low level, 'harmless' brand that a lot of people on this thread describe infects us as a society, it creates a safe space for horrible ideas and ideologies to go unchecked or to at least not be closed down.

Religion, even the low level, 'harmless' brand that a lot of people on this thread describe infects us as a society, it creates a safe space for horrible ideas and ideologies to go unchecked or to at least not be closed down.

Apart from the fact that the above is bollocks, you do realise that you could just as easily put 'Mumsnet' in instead of 'religion' - there's plenty of safe space for people to write crap and unless it's written by a banned poster or is very insulting (and that's a moveable goalpost) it stays. You could also insert the word 'media' or 'twitter' or 'facebook' or 101 alternatives.

Speak out, are you this derogatory about all belief systems that conflict with your own narrow worldview? “Jesus is my superhero songs”? Dear oh dear, so desperate to appear clever and on point yet look like a twat! Have some respect for others eh?

I am so sick of the same old chestnut that people keep coming out with.

FIND. ANOTHER. CHURCH.

Fact is that they are nearly all the same. I have been to about a dozen Churches in my 40-odd years of life, and they are all the same!

A few people have been going on (on this thread,) about this wonderful happy-clappy, amazing, accepting, diverse, exciting, thrilling Church they go to, that has 300 regular members in the congregation, and a vibrant and exciting vibe to it, and a thoroughly wonderful and engaging vicar who just loves everyone, accepts gays, loves the world, and is hilariously funny, and the whole congregation just LOVES him!

For a start, I have never ever witnessed anywhere like this (only in the movies! ) and even if they DO exist, they are the exception rather than the rule.

There may be the odd Church like this in big cities, but the fact is that the vast majority of Churches in villages, suburbs, and small/medium towns, are exactly like I, and the OP, and a number of others have described. Boring and dull and drab, with the same boring stuff being read every week, the same type of controlling and gossipy people running it, and these same people trying to hook everyone in to run it with them, (and looking down on those who don't.)

I would like to go to a happy-clappy, amazing, vibrant Church like a few people claim theirs is like, but unfortunately I have not found one like this in the UK that exists! And even if there WAS a Church like this in my closest big city, that has a massive congregation and a shit-load more going on (and that won't pin me down and try and get me to go to on the tea rota, or to 'house group' and f-k knows what else,) the fact is that I have better things to do than travel a 70 mile round-trip to this 'amazing' Church every flipping Sunday!

@PatriarchyPersonifed it sounds like you have massive issues with religion for some reason; maybe you were forced to Church as a kid or something, but please keep your horrible, rancid, bigoted, offensive opinions to yourself, because they are vile.

Whereas it's demonstrably true that the world would be a more advanced and safer place without religion?

A lot of evil has been done in the name of religion... that’s not in dispute, but it’s poor logic to deduce that therefore religion is itself bad. It’s a bit like saying many men have done evil things, therefore men are all evil and the world should rid itself of all of them!

And it’s not demonstrably true that the world would be a better place without religion. Most of the worst crimes of the past 100 years have been carried out by people without religious motives or have been actively antagonistic towards religion. Hilter, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. were hardly great religious leaders!

Iwanttobe8stoneagain I have zero respect for any proselytizing religion.

And their fucking " Jesus is my Superhero" crap.

I respect anyone's right to hold their belief. That doesn't give them the right to push it down my throat.

Good post @coconutella ^

@speakout

I respect anyone's right to hold their belief. That doesn't give them the right to push it down my throat.

I bet a thousand pounds, that no-one ever does that. I bet NO-ONE you know ever, ever tries to push their religion on you.

Fact is that they are nearly all the same. I have been to about a dozen Churches in my 40-odd years of life, and they are all the same!

Really? There are three within walking distance of my house which are all very different.

You might want to get rid of the 'accepting and diverse' bit. The most minority heavy churches tend to be the least accepting of things like homosexuality, divorce, pregnancy outside marriage and abortion etc.

If you want that sort of thing you'll have to go to the horribly white CofE I'm afraid. Sorry if that doesn't fit in with your narrative.

I'm quite at a loss to how someone can say that an evangelical African/US influenced stadium church is the same as a few little old ladies going to chapel or either are like family Methodist churches.

Whereas it's demonstrably true that the world would be a more advanced and safer place without religion?

Most of our moral system originates within religion. Like murder, rape and theft not being okay.

petbear we- particulary as women are subject to an inferior status in society.

This patriarchy is a system constructed by the church.
I was forced to say the Lord's Prayer every single morning at school for 15 years - non faith schools.
My children have been " taught " how to pray at school ( again a non faith school) and make to sing jesus superhero songs.

My family are deeply religious and try to convert me at every turn.

I guess you are right- no religious influence at all then.