To think it's really cheeky to remove Christmas flowers from the altar for your wedding

[user1485342611]

A good friend of mine is on the flower team for our local church. They did the altar up beautifully for Christmas. A wedding had been booked in the church for a few days after Christmas and they wanted to remove all the flowers and replace with their own arrangements. It was explained to the B&G that once the Church was decorated for Christmas it had to stay that way until 12th night.

The couple kicked up an almighty fuss and said there was no way they wanted red and white flowers on the altar during their wedding. Then, with no permission, they went into the church, removed all the Christmas arrangements from the altar and left them at the side of the Church. They then replaced them with their own flowers, and brought the flowers away with them after the wedding, leaving the altar (and the steps outside which were also decorated for Christmas) bare.

They told no one what they had done and when it was discovered my friend and her team (all voluntary workers) who had spent hours getting the Church ready for Christmas, then had to give up more of their time restoring the altar to the way it was. They were absolutely furious.

AIBU to think this was unbelievably cheeky and to also not understand why you would get married at Christmas time and then object to the Church being decorated in a Christmassy fashion?

Nearly everyone who has contributed to this thread has ignored the fact that churches are not there to provide agreeable suburban scenery or a pleasing architectural background to wedding photographs.

You really didn't read the fucking thread, did you?

They are not 'paying for a venue'.
They are paying for a religious marriage service.

That is the central issue here.

Was my church the most beautiful wedding ceremony venue in my area? No.
Did that matter? No. Because the religious ceremony is what matters to us.
We could have had a civil service somewhere else but that wouldn't have been right for us.

If the couple were hung up about wanting a perfect venue and photos then they shouldn't have booked a church if they weren'r willing to follow the rules.

Sigh.

But it’s not you deciding is it Glitterystag?

As soon as I hear or read the word "venue" in relation to a request from strangers (and it's always strangers) for any service in my church, the word "No" starts forming in my mind.

Before the word "No" takes full shape and emerges from my mouth, I contact them to find out a bit more and arrange to meet for a chat. I suggest the best time to speak with me in the first instance is immediately after worship. The suggestion that they come to church other than for their own special service is often a hurdle that they didn't expect and struggle to comprehend.

I've been in ministry for only 7 years, and I discovered very early on that the more you give, the more the CFs will take.

Since this thread started I've wondered what I would do if I arrived to conduct a wedding and discovered that this had happened. The thought of simply saying that the wedding is off, is attractive, but not the best way to deal with it.

But, then I would be so angry that I wouldn't be able to conduct the planned service, so I think I'd probably do the bare minimum required to ensure that they were legally married.

And I'd bill them for the cost of having a professional florist replace the arrangements which they had trashed.

What is the difference between donation and fee? If the vicar wouldn't conduct the ceremony without the donation then it isn't voluntary. It's disingenuous to imply there's a difference really.

I don't think it's terrible that people want a church service and a pretty backdrop for their wedding. In charging not insignificant amounts of money for a service, it becomes transactional to a lot of people, rather than solely a religious ceremony.

YANBU. If they wanted to marry in a religious space they should have had some respect. If the flowers were such a big deal then they should have found a different venue.

For all those who've wondered "would they have behaved the same way at a purely commercial venue?", I'd suggest that any such action would probably have landed them with a big bill ... whereas with many churches, it seems the worst they could expect was some regretful muttering and sad shaking of heads

Is it perhaps possible they factored this in when making their choices?

Oh, they definitely factored in the likelihood of being able to get away with this in a church! No doubt about that, at all!

IWanna - a donation means that the donor chooses how much to give, and may give nothing at all. Someone who donates ££££ will receive the same service as someone who makes no donation at all.

Exactly, puzzled. It’s an ignorant view, but some people do seem to think they can get away with things when they’re dealing with a religious organisation that they wouldn’t dare try to do in other contexts. This couple clearly thought they could take the piss.

I saw upthread that some churches 'suggest' the level of donation. Sounds like a fee to me

I saw upthread that some churches 'suggest' the level of donation. Sounds like a fee to me

No. That would be a "suggested donation". If people give more, or less, or nothing at all they will still be able to get married, in that church, by that member of the clergy.

A fee, on the other hand, is fixed. Pay the fee, receive the service. Don't pay the fee, don't receive the service.

Donations and fees are not the same.

I would say alter flowers can be moved without damaging them, maybe not single handedly but easy enough with a two man team.

I imagine the issue of the alter flowers came up late in terms of planning the wedding. I think they should have been allowed to move them, comes across as very pedantic and precious BUT they were told they couldn’t so they should have abides by that. So in this situation YANBU.

For the love of god, it's ALTAR.

just one too many times on this thread

One of the perks of having a Christmas wedding is that churches and whatnot are already decorated, surely?

This exactly!!

I got married around Christmas, vicar offered to get the church ladies to remove the flowers - my response was why on earth would you do that??? They were beautiful and made my church wedding look even more lovely

In charging not insignificant amounts of money for a service, it becomes transactional to a lot of people, rather than solely a religious ceremony.

You seem to be obsessed with the idea that the church is charging a fortune for this. I note you completely ignored my post pointing out that it costs very similar amounts to get married in a registry office and significantly more to get married in a secular venue with registrars in attendance.

It cost me only £50 to get married in a registry office last year, so a church service is definitely more, but it's not an unreasonable cost at all.

Many people who aren't particularly religious see the church as merely a pretty backdrop for their wedding. I've even known atheists get married in church because it looks nicer than the register office and costs about the same. If the church wants only religious people who respect the significance of Christmas flowers etc, they should stop hiring it out to anyone who pays the fee and restrict it to congregation only. Otherwise they will continue to get people who don't care about anything except making the backdrop look the way they want it to look in their photos.

Bellamuerte
The thing is lots of people choose to marry in a church who aren't deeplu religious.
Just a few from friends:

• it's the village church and tradition is evrryone gets married there and has the reception at a local pub which does awesome food
• it's the church where their parents and grandparents married
• they are culturallly catholic but don't regularly attend. It wouldn't occur to them to not have marriage, baptism, confirmation, first communion etc

All of those are perfectly reasonable reasons. It would be sad to see churches close off to members only because of some CF.

For all those who've wondered "would they have behaved the same way at a purely commercial venue?", I'd suggest that any such action would probably have landed them with a big bill ... whereas with many churches, it seems the worst they could expect was some regretful muttering and sad shaking of heads
Is it perhaps possible they factored this in when making their choices?
Of coursr they did.
They'd not even try it in a big posh venue because they'd get billed but churches should roll over and let them do what they like because they are so unbelievably special and their day is more important than anything else in the whole universe.

I agree it would be a shame if churches closed off to members only. My point is that as long as churches continue to make themselves available to non-religious people then they have to accept that these people will continue to treat them in a non-religious way and won't necessarily have respect for any religious beliefs or things like Christmas flowers.

I think they should move towards some kind of blanket agreemrnt signed saying any damage to the building or contents will lead to a bill. Then invoice the CF.

I find it difficult to actually understand how someine can go to any place of worship, be told one thing and then just do what they like.

It's like visitinf Catholic cathedrals- no short shorts or bare shoulders is standard. But on holiday you still see people do it
Same when we visited the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Some people had to be told repeatedly to dress for the building.
Some people are so rude.

If the church wants only religious people who respect the significance of Christmas flowers etc, they should stop hiring it out to anyone who pays the fee and restrict it to congregation only.

For the CofE this isn't an option - part of its duties as state church (whether or not you think there should be any such thing is an entirely different question, of course). I'm sure many individual vicars wish they could turn away those who just want pretty pictures, though.

They do not 'hire out' the church. (How many more times). They agree to perform a religious marriage ceremony including, in many cases, providing music, a rehearsal the night before to ensure everyone is comfortable with what they have to do, and advice on readings and bidding prayers.