to think that Ian Huntley is most definitely not a woman?

[ATeardropExplodes]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

I dont see the point on debating this

And yet here you are telling us not to debate it. Within months he could be inside a woman's prison and that doesn't even raise an eyebrow? If that is fine the feel free not to post again.

I am certain that huntley had all kinds of wrong throughout his life. Whether he located that in his gendered body seems small fry.

Lots of people have all kinds of wrong but that does not make them rapists or murderers. What a strange angle.

I am not a cis woman. I am a woman.

Sometimes it is necessary to distinguish black men from white men, homosexual women from heterosexual women, trans men from non-trans men (or cis men). Saying 'I am not a [qualifier] man/woman I am a man/woman' creates a non-existent dichotomy.

Not a strange angle when you realise how disproportionate the statistics are for people who have had shit- been abused or have learning difficulties/ disabilities ( I know the difference). Yes ofcourse many do well but the odds are stacked against you and that is in my mind appalling.over half of children in the care system end up in the criminal justice system.

"I dont see the point on debating this. I am certain that huntley had all kinds of wrong throughout his life. Whether he located that in his gendered body seems small fry." He certainly DID all kinds of wrong. He was a rapist and an abuser before he went on to murder children. Whole enquiries were held about how he found himself in a position of Trust that enabled him to carry out his final crimes.

So...you think he could be a woman then, because the system let him down?

whether or not he could be a woman is the least of my concerns. I care much more about what caused him to lose touch with humanity, cause devastation and cruelty/ murder to children and what could help us understand this and help- including yes I think very likely a system that let him down.

If there is any truth in this gid idea- it should also be understood- but from these threads alone its hard to feel convinced about significance.

There is no need to distinguish between "Cis women" and women, Women who are adult human females are women. End of. People with penises are men.

but from these threads alone its hard to feel convinced about significance

So you have not actually absorbed that he could be in a female prison next year? Either that or you don't care, you certainly seem to care about him more than anything else here.

Farfeom, are you trying to imply that IH had ongoing gender confusion issues that led him to commit his many crimes? Cos that is really taking the piss.

You havent understood my response.

portly- no I'm not.

Well a discussion about why men turn into rapists and murderers is a whole other thread then. It doesn't belong here,

I am perfectly happy to call people what they want to be called. I would like the courtesy to be returned. I want to be called a woman.

You havent understood my response

I think you are being deliberately disingenuous/goady. If you cannot stick to the topic please leave, it is too important to be derailed in this way.

ATeardrop it doesnt surprise me that you think that. Everything I say I mean and feel strongly about. You see that as goady- just to wind you up? I suggest you find other views hard to really believe.

Farfrom, I would also come from the point of view that trying to find out what went wrong in a person's life to make them do the awful things they have done to land up in jail is important. I think prisoners (no matter what they have done) have rights; I don't think IH should be stoned, or killed, or tortured in any way.

But because I feel like that I have sympathy for women who have ended up in jail. Some have done terrible things, many have had terrible things done to them. They too are vulnerable and we as a society should be keeping an eye out for them.

Because prisoners are vulnerable they are segregated in many ways - on levels of violence, sometimes on religion, sometimes on the types of crimes they have committed, but always on sex (sex, not gender) in order to keep the more vulnerable, the women, safer.

I don't think moving a violent man into a women's prison should ever be considered. If a man is considered so vulnerable he cannot be kept with other male prisoners, keep him separate, in another wing, or on his own. Don't improve the lot of ONE man by endangering HUNDREDS OF women.

What he calls himself, or whether he considers himself to be a woman or not should be completely irrelevant in a prison.

Sometimes it is necessary to distinguish black men from white men, homosexual women from heterosexual women, trans men from non-trans men (or cis men).

Yes, I agree. So you can say ‘women and transwomen’. There is no need to say cis or non-trans.

FarFrom

I'm wondering if your experience of transwomen has been fairly benign?

Perhaps you have encountered genuine transsexuals who want to get on quietly with their lives, under the radar. Without politicising the ideology or making unreasonable demands.

Gender dysphoria can indeed be a crippling condition. And must be very hard to live with.

Unfortunately, since transsexual became transgender, a new type of transwomen have taken precedence.

The motivation is not gender dysphoria, it is sexual. The arousal of the thought of oneself as a woman.

They are entirely different. Most transwomen do not have genital surgery (85%). Particularly this latter cohort. Who are usually attracted to women and are the ones who are erasing homosexuality as an orientation, claiming it is transphobic. Insisting lesbians should sleep with men, as long as they identify as women (See cotton ceiling).

There is a current thread written by many women who are married to, or have been married to, men such as these.

It really might help you understand better if you read the thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

It is these men who have changed the narrative so that being trans no longer has to include gender dysphoria. No dysphoric angst. No 'always been a girl'.

Which means people like Huntley, with no history of gender dysphoria, and is not transgender in any generally understood sense of the word, can identify as female.

The women on here are not bigots. They're not unpleasant. They're not mean. They're not deliberately trying to exclude people, for no reason.

They have just read more about it. And about how it has changed.

I urge you to do the same.

SimonBridges But women on its own could include trans women. Or it may exclude trans men. Or include them. If however I just say non-trans women or better still, cis women, you will KNOW exactly who I am referring to, and that this won't include trans women or trans men. Should for some reason I need to refer only to non-trans women.

If however I just say non-trans women or better still, cis women, you will KNOW exactly who I am referring to,

Did you have a sibling that you used to wind up in the car JAPAB?

Every time I see your posts, I want to say 'mu-um, he's doing it again. He's looking at me funny'.

But women on its own could include trans women.

No it can’t because trans women are not women.

@JAPAB what the are you on? Your last message was so garbled as to be incomprehensible.

The use of the word woman means adult human female

Never have I heard the word women being used to refer to a trans woman there is always trans before the word woman/women

So no need for the use of cis as many people one will have no idea what you are taking about and secondly everyone understands what a woman is

And people are learning what transwomen are - but also know they are not women in the way I am (an adult human female yes a real woman)

And of course no male prisoners should be in a female prison. For those vulnerable there shall have to be safe spaces made for them not for women to have their safety compromised

Your last message was so garbled as to be incomprehensible.

Because he's practised in the art of the innocent wind up.

Trying to sound reasonable and logical whilst sticking it to you.

SimonBridges No it can’t because trans women are not women.

That is an ideology one section subscribes to. Other sections subscribe to a different one.

The "non-trans" qualifier communicates to ALL who you are referring to. "Women" might be misinterpreted if said by someone of one ideology but read by people of the other.

Datun have you personally spoken to every transexual, every trans women, every trans activist? You seem to know an awful lot about what each all think.