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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that Ian Huntley is most definitely not a woman?

525 replies

ATeardropExplodes · 28/12/2017 17:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/15/call-lian-child-killer-ian-huntley-has-told-inmates-call-feminine/

If anyone has any evidence to convince me otherwise please do enlighten me, thanks in advance.

OP posts:
FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 16:44

Simon If I say a trans person with a penis is a trans woman is that ok?

Maryz · 29/12/2017 16:44

The discussion is whether male-bodied people are women just because they say so.

Do you think that Ian Huntley announcing his name is Lian and wearing makeup/a dress makes him a woman? If so, should he be moved to a women's prison?

SimonBridges · 29/12/2017 16:45

Yes, 'cis'.

I am not a cis woman, I am a woman, that is it, beginning middle and fucking end.

No fucker gets to relabel me and tell me to get back in my box.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 16:45

Yes, of course it's ok to say a transperson is a transperson, dress or not. It's fine for him/her to identify as trans (or whatever he or she likes).

What is not ok is to announce that by doing so a man is now a woman and should be allowed into women's spaces - prisons, sports, refuges etc etc.

ATeardropExplodes · 29/12/2017 16:45

I understand your arguments, but in my daily life I prefer not to discriminate against women and men who are trans (I imagine they've had to deal with a lot of shit in life as it is). I've got mates who are trans and I don't think they're pretending to be women to bullshit their way into having some kind of dubious privilege which doesn't exist (and the whole bathroom prurience thing just ugh)

So you see the male rapists and murderer Ian Huntley, one of the most well known murderers who killed two girls in Soham Cambridgeshire, and think 'oh yes I can see he is a woman'? That is what this thread is about. And if so, what is your thought process?

OP posts:
GinSoddenWhore · 29/12/2017 16:46

I said men in dresses. If you want me to rephrase it then I'll say men who think that woman is a costume they can put on.

SimonBridges · 29/12/2017 16:47

Yes, Fabia. I will gladly accept that a person with a penis who identifies as a woman and wants to live as a woman (whatever that means), dress as a woman is a transwoman.
I will call them their chosen name, chosen pronoun - everything.

They will not be and never will be a woman. Just the same as I will never be 6ft 4, or black or scottish or a cat.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 16:48

In my daily life I prefer not to discriminate against women and men who are not trans, and so I call them by the name they have been referred to for centuries; women and men.

There is no dubious privilege in men demanding to be put in a prison with vulnerable women, or demanding and getting a position as women's officer (taking it from a woman) or entering and winning women's sports events.

Stating those things isn't transphobia - and if you read this thread that's what it's about.

FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 16:49

Teardrop you're making assumptions about my views.

I'm not aiming to be divisive. My OP was aimed at clarification and understanding. If I wanted to get into some mudslinging debate I'd bugger off to Twitter.

Maryz · 29/12/2017 16:51

You effectively came onto this thread and accused posters of being transphobic.

Had you not read the comments, or do you honestly think we are all transphobic for saying IH should not be allowed to simply change his name, declare himself a woman and thus actually be one?

ATeardropExplodes · 29/12/2017 16:51

Teardrop you're making assumptions about my views.

I quoted your words and referred you to the original question. No assumptions made whatsoever.

OP posts:
Awwlookatmybabyspider · 29/12/2017 16:52

Hi Fab. Welcome aboard.
I'm not transphobic. I'd gladly do the surgery and cut his equipment off for free. It should have been done long ago.
JUst that I refuse to ponder to him.

Society owes Ian Huntley nothing.
I don't know why he's wanting to go to a women's prison. Does he think they'll take the softly softly approach with him. If anything due to the maternal instinct they'll rip him apart

FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 16:52

As for "thin end of the wedge' arguments relating to potential consequences (like women being assaulted my transwomen in bathrooms -just example) my first reaction is to ask "how common is this? Is there any reason to believe this will happen? Is there factual information available?" I'm suspicious of things which immediately appeal to my prejudices and I think other people should be too.

Humpsfor20yards · 29/12/2017 16:53

I didn't think in terms of I'd better call HIM a she. I thought I'd call HER a she

Fabala, do you agree with JAPAB that the moment Ian Huntley decided to be called Lian then he became a she. Japab apparently feels this because there is no physical property/any attributes of a woman that can be independently verified.

FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 16:54

Add: I shouldn't have posted on the Huntley thread as I don't have an opinion here and don't want to speculate about his motives.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 16:54

Had you read the whole thread you would see that I too have friends who are trans, both male and female. I make no judgements, totally accept a person's choice to live as a member of the sex they were not born into. Most poster's here say the very same thing, over and over again. It just gets ignored

I DO NOT accept the 'othering' of women, the biological kind, that many of the more politicised, loud, outspoken, aggressive, radical - pick your term - male who chooses to make his first port of call in his trans journey to try to change the very definition of female. I outlined the weird dichotomy of it on page 1 or 2.

The term cis should make every single female's teeth itch! It is a misapplication of a very specific scientific term and is used specifically to remove biological females from the central definition of woman!

If you don't agree you need to think about it... you as a biological female are no longer the very definition of female... why not?

Because a man who wishes to live as a woman wants to have that definition include himself... so a woman with a penis is as much a woman as a biological female. And just so we can tell the difference the biological male gets to be called a woman and the biological female gets to be called a cis woman.

Why?

If you think that is an over reaction - and this time last year I probably would have agreed with you - you need to have a look at various laws that have already been modified in the UK... the one that says it is a hate crime to refuse to call a man who says he is a woman 'she' for example, linked to earlier in this thread.

That is not a man who has made any efforts to live as a woman, just one who says he is a woman! Which is why you may have also seen "I wish to be seen as a penguin" type comments!

FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 16:55

Humps it's not up to me to define what Huntley is or is not? I also don't know if H is actually trans and don't care to speculate

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 16:58

That very much side steps the sand storm you have whipped up though, Fabala

ATeardropExplodes · 29/12/2017 17:02

Humps it's not up to me to define what Huntley is or is not? I also don't know if H is actually trans and don't care to speculate

So what was the point of your posts? Why not suspend your accusations and think this through. A murderer and rapist says he wants to be called a woman in future. Do you read this and think 'yes, I can see that' or do you think 'hell no'?

OP posts:
Maryz · 29/12/2017 17:06

Maybe you should have an opinion on this? After all, this is happening, not yet with IH, but certainly with other violent sex offenders.

Does the fact that they are transgender excuse their demanding to be moved to women's prisons?

FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 17:10

Ok, so what I've found is that I don't agree with a number of the posts I've read on MN relating to trans issues (on this thread and in the feminist section of the site). But you've all given me a useful insight into your thought processes and opinions. Thanks for taking the time.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 17:15

If you are up front about that you'll have some great debates on various threads round here Smile

I tend to find many of the feminist boards a bit OTT, but they do give you a great place to read different views.

MN regularly reiterates that it will not ban robust debate on this issue, women, females, need a safe space to discuss it, but they will remove anything they deem to be trans phobic.

ATeardropExplodes · 29/12/2017 17:18

Ok, so what I've found is that I don't agree with a number of the posts I've read on MN relating to trans issues (on this thread and in the feminist section of the site). But you've all given me a useful insight into your thought processes and opinions. Thanks for taking the time

Perhaps you can drop in on those threads and give your point of view on there? Seeing as you have no view on IH.

OP posts:
FabalaTheGreenGirl · 29/12/2017 17:19

Cool. I suppose I need to redefine what I think the word "transphobic" means.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 29/12/2017 17:22

That would be a great first step... and is where I started to change my mind.

If you think about various terms from both sides of the 'argument... cis woman, TERF etc. Try to rationalise them, as well as transphobic, and see what you come up with.

I found cis to be the worst, once I had thought about it being applied to me forever!

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