to just be appalled and feel utterly powerless

[Misstomrs]

The BBC news today has an article that 1 in 5 births have an incident or near miss that could result in harm (including terminal harm) for a mother or her baby at birth.

My own birth was appalling mis-managed and since then (18 months ago) I have met with the hospital and the University that provided the trainee who was involved in our care and who almost killed our DS. It’s been genuinely draining and traumatic for me to keep going over what happened, but I have because I don’t want anyone else to go through what we did as a family. It was all completely avoidable.

I’m left feeling that maybe it wasn’t worth it. The system just seems so broken. What’s the point?

The lottery of care is one of the main things that puts me off having any more DCs. Both the hospital consultant and Univeristy team were appalled when I explained that to them, but it’s true.

AIBU? And more importantly, what can WE do about it?

I have to agree with TheLegendofBeans on that.

And might I say to you @Legend, the fact that you would threaten me with your profession; judging me on a few sentences on an anonymous forum, rather than the actual work I do, says more about you than me. As does your choice of words towards me. You're a disgrace and a hypocrite. So, toodle pips to you too.

Thank thelegend, I couldnt agree more!

And you, @Shoes, I'm not surprised. You have completely misunderstood what I'm saying. At it's strange as your anecdote was actually on point. A lack of respect is relevant to poor care. The ups and downs of birth are not; not when they are par for the course of labour. If you can't see how that 'muddies the waters' on a thread aimed at negligence/poor care, I dispair.

@Suki. To you, I apologise. I did not get any of that from your first post. I hope you recieved appropriate explanation and apology from those who managed your care so poorly.

Another midwife here, and it makes my heart sink when I read threads like this. Because we should be on the same side. I don't know how the system can be fixed. There are awful midwives - people who are burnt out, or don't care and shouldn't be providing care anymore but the service is so short staffed that they don't get dealt with. But, but, but..... The conditions we work under are ridiculous. We go from labour to labour. All that adrenaline, no time to think or reflect, no time to speak to women afterwards. People become burnt out to protect themselves. Supporting labouring women is physically and emotionally exhausting. The paperwork is phenomenonal. Community is no better. I have 24 women a day booked into my clinics - a 20 minute slot to do all the checks, deliver public health information, ask about mental health and dv, talk about birth preferences and answer all the questions women have. It feels like we are being set up to fail - we don't have the trust and support of women and families anymore. Midwives will be replaced by support workers. I feel very sad and manipulated.

Reborn, thanks for that.

Think is, my son has autism. Though I know it is a developmental condition, I always have my doubts. I remember the shock on the midwife’s face and her using the tannoy calling for the dr and stating “baby in distress”. Several calls were made before the obstetrician arrived and what seemed like moments later, DS was out.

There was no apology. As I say, they knew they’d not covered themselves in glory and I think I saw every member of staff who was present, at my bedside, over the next 24 hours.

Rebornslippy - have you any idea how aggressive you sound on this thread? How dismissive and high-handed? If you come across like this to the women you attend, then you are part of the problem.

reborn I have no idea what you are like in real life but you are spectacularly bad at communicating on line.

The way you use language is awful.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is childbirth in all it's glory That makes you sound like a total arse.

Your following posts don't help. You speak a lot of sense but its lost in the horrible way you surround that sense with cliches and bombast.

FYI everyone knows that accidents happen and that women will die in childbirth. But everyone, including you, knows that risks can be minimised. In a developed country like the UK maternal and infant mortality should not be on the rise. If it is there is a problem and you blaming women for being fat or demanding isn't going to help is it?

I work with the children living with the results of difficult and/or mismanaged births. No ifs or buts about them. They have birth injuries.

Totally agree with shoes, and suki I agree listening makes a big difference. As much as empathy and understanding, I think in order to be a decent midwife you need to be able to display this, With my midwife being completely out of her depth, Obviously not having the skills to realise that my son was stuck even though he was becoming distressed instead waiting for the dr and telling me she didnt know what was wrong when I was begging for help.
It would have made a big difference to my birth if she herself had figuired out he was stuck and probably a big difference afterwards as I had spd and by the time the dr came to see me he said he needed to get him out immediately subsequently not letting me get up to give birth as I was told by my physio there was no way I was allowed to give birth laying down, So then I really suffered afterwards not being able to walk for weeks.
Sometimes its lack of training lack of empathy lack of skills, lack of staff.

On the upside I had an Amazing midwife for my second child, she was calm, kind professional, encouraging, she made my birth so much easier because she was so supportive and kind, It was my best birth as births go.

The midwife who delivered my ds was amazing. Just absolutely brilliant. She couldn't get any more brilliant in my eyes, she was outstanding.
The four midwives who managed my induction, hospital admission and labour were ignorant, dismissive, rude, belittling and it turned out - wrong and downright negligent.

Cross posted with thefirstmrsdv totally agree.

@TheFirstMrsDV. Should I apologise for my lack of writing skills? Another stick to beat me, the "cunt" midwife with (thanks again for that @Legend)? Luckily, I'm not judged on my prose in my actual job. A job I take great pride in doing well. A job that I'll open myself up to a barage of abuse online when I feel it's being done a disservice.

What a lot of you fail to understand is that we, as midwives, or at least me, signed up for a job that would see me 'with woman'. That was the idea. Me and a woman welcoming new life into the world, with all the time, patience and care it required. The reality is very, very different. If you've had babies, you'll have had a taste of what the role of the midwife is. But, believe it or not, most of us are doing our best. So, forgive me, but to stumble across a thread like this, which is littered with complaints about things, which are mostly outside our control is galling.

Yes, mortality is on the rise. However, what you've failed to include in that is that mortality is on the rise due to several factors including premature births and multiples. A link to things such as advanced maternal age, obesity and fertility treatment. It is taking time for those of us on the ground to catch up with the new demographic we're faced with. Again, we're doing our best. A lot of it is outside our control. I am a little fish in a big pond and I accept that change is needed and I'm hopeful it will come.

However, to listen to irrelevant anecdotes, off the back of an article that is sensationalist and unfair fills me with rage. As midwives, when a woman has a tear greater than 2nd degree for example, we report this. I would imagine these incidences are also included in this report. However, instead of saying; well you know, tearing can occur in childbirth and often it is outside the control of the midwife, it's dressed up as something we have done wrong. When actually, no, that's just what happens sometimes.

You expect midwives and HCPs to be some sort of shining light of good and understanding. You expect us to be all things to all women at all times. Yet, you pay us a pittance for the jobs we do. You come on forums to complain about and attack us (@Legend). Where is your understanding?

I have had 8 midwives at my births (one was there twice) and lots of others at antenatal.
Most of them have been lovely.
The occasional one as been rude.
The ones at my first birth seemed unable to understand that a first time mum might find things a bit tricky. That surprised me.
By the time I had DC 5 (4th birth child) I was very confident and knew what was going on. My two midwifes and one midwife friend were exactly what I needed. Kind, confident, compassionate and wise. They were competent and experienced enough to know they didn't need to interfere and knew exactly when to get involved.
I couldn't have asked for better.
They were community midwives. I have always found them easier to get along with. Maybe something about seeing women in their own homes helps. Easier to see them as individuals and less temptation to boss someone about when they are on their home ground?

On the whole midwives seem a lovely lot. I think thats why its such a shock when you come across a rotter. Particularly as that tends to happen when you are anxious or in pain.

Its not a lack of writing skills Born. You are being obtuse.
Its your writing style. You are rude and dismissive and pretty nasty.

If that isn't what you are like in RL why give that impression on here?

This for example 'What a lot of you fail to understand is that we...,
Nonsense.
And you are not getting a 'barrage' of abuse because you are a midwife.
Posters are responding to your posts. Not your defence of midwives, your dismissal of mothers.

Why don't you try talking to people instead of at them? Might help your cause if you are really bothered.

My "dismissal of mothers"? What are you even talking about?! This is not a mothers' meeting last time I checked. It's a thread in relation to incidences of harm or near misses in maternity care. If I wanted to talk to mothers about their birth experiences, I would go to that thread.

As it is, I really am done with this. As ususal birth and labour cannot be discussed in a rationale or neutral manner without onemanupship and diary entries about who had the most horrific experience. The issue is bigger than that. I thought this thread was the place to talk about that. Evidently not. And on that note, things to do so I'm over and out.

I don’t understand all the preparation in ante-natal. Talking about situations that in todays climate, are never ever going to happen ... Because there’s no bed, short staffing levels, no SCBU place available, no time for talking and reassurance, no analgesia given, no birthing pool available. If the birthing reality is a production line of “lying on yer back on a bed” what’s the point in allowing a couple to think they have choices?

This is not a mothers' meeting last time I checked

It's Mumsnet - it's exactly a mother's meeting!

If mothers and their birth experiences aren't relevant to incidences or harm or near misses in maternity care - then I don't know what is.

After your last post I am less inclined to think you obtuse and more to think you are a bit thick.

By definition the women talking about their birth experiences are mothers.
FFS.

diary entries about who had the most horrific experience

More hyperbole
My posts haven't done anything of the sort.
And if you are referring to mothers describing their birth experiences I would say you are pretty much defining 'dismissive' with that comment.

Ante natal care is checking blood pressure, weight, urine, etc. Lots of things that can give the heads up that something may be going wrong. That kind of ante natal care does not happen everywhere in the world.
Also those with existing medical problems may be monitored much more closely.

When I had my DC1 you saw a mw every month and your urine was tested every time.
By the time I had DC 5 I saw a mw about 4 times during the pregnancy and urine tests were not routine.

I expect the changes are not just down to funding. Its probably not necessary to see a mw every month.

I don't think it helps that cuts to women's health have been happening at the same time that women are being told not to do/do things at an astonishing rate. They are being told that so many things are dangerous they are bound to be more anxious and wanting reassurance from professionals.
Yet they are labelled demanding for it.

I had babies in 2010 and 2015. The decline in post natal care between the two births was shocking. In my area, mothers used to get home visits post birth, every couple of days until the discharge from MW care. This time around,in 2015, you had to be driven to the community hospital to see them. I developed intense post natal anxiety on about day 2, and luckily they picked up on it and I got treated immediately.

But if XP hadn't been around to drive me in, I wonder what would have happened? I wonder how many new mums miss those appointments because they don't feel well enough to catch 2 buses? Or whose abusive partners refuse to drive them? Or who don't have the confidence to put their foot down and DEMAND a home visit when they can't get in because they don't realise that that's an option? Who ignore the fact that they feel a bit funny or that there's something a bit off with the baby until suddenly it's a full blown emergency? Something that would have been picked up if a MW had visited?

In our area there have been vacant community MW posts since 2010, and it's getting worse. I could never get a straight answer as to why these posts hadn't been advertised, but guess it was money. I've known one of these community MWs as a personal friend (not my area, but an adjacent one; same trust) and regularly saw her in tears due to stress and exhaustion. She's now left the profession and works as housekeeper at a hotel. She says she's much happier. So, that's a load of experience and expensive professional training lost to the NHS

RebornSlippy has some excellent points and is trying to actually analyse the situation . She is in the field so sees hundreds of births. We each only had our own. (My first was 1998 and was good - my second 2000 and was really not)

Midwives generally are doing their best - and are leaving in droves because of the impossible demands on them. We should be working with them.

The number of factors that have caused the problems discussed in the article are huge. Anecdotes, whilst interesting, don't help us to understand. Slippy is right; a thread with birth experiences is a different thread.

These factors must include problems with the NHS, (what is it supposed to do? how is it managed?), money, changes in demographics, (far more fertility treatment/high risk pregnancies/multiples), a very high number of women who don't speak English and who cannot therefore communicate with their midwives - yet it is the midwife's fault if something is missed. Obesity is a contributor, as is women demanding certain treatment against medical advice (because the mother is always right and it is of course her decision).

The OP asked what we could do about it. That really is the question. It would be interesting to hear what might be steps that we could take to improve things