to just be appalled and feel utterly powerless

[Misstomrs]

The BBC news today has an article that 1 in 5 births have an incident or near miss that could result in harm (including terminal harm) for a mother or her baby at birth.

My own birth was appalling mis-managed and since then (18 months ago) I have met with the hospital and the University that provided the trainee who was involved in our care and who almost killed our DS. It’s been genuinely draining and traumatic for me to keep going over what happened, but I have because I don’t want anyone else to go through what we did as a family. It was all completely avoidable.

I’m left feeling that maybe it wasn’t worth it. The system just seems so broken. What’s the point?

The lottery of care is one of the main things that puts me off having any more DCs. Both the hospital consultant and Univeristy team were appalled when I explained that to them, but it’s true.

AIBU? And more importantly, what can WE do about it?

Partly because you get what you pay for and partly because the NHS is such a sacred cow come political football that it can never be examined dispassionately and (constructively) critically.

The issue isn't the NHS, the issue is the chronic underfunding and failure to attract and retain staff.

The warnings about below par maternity services , has been warned about for about 5 years. NOBODY in the govt is listening as they don't give a shit, they want the NHS to fail so they and their friends can invest in private companies who will take over the NHS, and make a lot of money.

Funding @lalaloopylu. But you know that.

To be brutally honest, I'll save my absolute outrage for developing countries. UK maternal deaths are approximately 10 per 100,000, whereas worldwide figures stand at more than 200 per 100,000. (Interestingly, one of the highest causes of maternal mortality in the UK is mental health/suicide).

But yes, ideally, it would be even lower and if you're looking for an answer to reducing these figures further, it is, as others have said, money. Everything is money. It's depressing.

It’s so frustrating as I can’t see the Tories getting voted out any time soon.

I agree we need a massive reform of the NHS. I also think because it affects woman is not seen as that important.

I remember a few years ago, a journalist did an investigation on UK Maternity services - and ended up so horrified by what she found, she had to call her editor about it, and even reconsidered writing an article at all, because it was just so bad, it was practically a whistleblowing.

I wish I could remember her name, or find the article, but there's too much more recent stuff. Things are even worse now.

And exactly the same happened the last time the Tories were in power

Indeed I'm old enough to remember that. By the time the Tory's left power people were dying waiting fir operations. I remember people had to wait months and months for by pass, heart surgery following a heart attack. People were just dropping down dead whilst waiting for these operations.

Agree it’s all about the ££££.

Surely it’s only going to get worse with the aging population & massive social care issue.

The NHS spends a lot on agency staff because staff are not paid or treated well, so many jump ship.
The Government does not seem to have got the message yet that the most skilled and experienced staff have a choice about where they work. Hence the Circle fiasco when an NHS award winning clinic was contracted out to Circle. Lots of staff jumped ship and the clinic now does not even meet local standards.

I’m really glad it’s not just me that feels strongly about this.

I completely accept that there will never be 0 incidents or deaths; I think most of us know that when we sign up to have a baby there is a risk (I had agreed with my DH to do a hysterectomy etc, whatever was needed). The issue is the rate of incidents and near misses.

In answer to the earlier question a near miss will likely be where a midwife has recorded, for example, a process wasn’t followed or observations weren’t done but there was no harm.

I think the point about supporting each other to make complaints is really well made. I have found it really tough and I think people often wonder why I have bothered. For some today’s report might explain it, for others - like me - it might just make them wonder more....

I think it's too simplistic to say it's all about money.

It depends what you do with the money. This depends on judgement of management. The NHS could have 10 times the funds it has now, but if it has the same kind of incompetent management, that just means 10 times the funds will be mis-spent, lost, wasted, mis-allocated, wasted on useless firms like McKinsey, PwC and KPMG.

Kick all of this lot out, that's the first step.

Actually, there is more morbidity associated with caesarean sections than vaginal births.

That's unsurprising - it's major surgery which carries a risk, and will tend to be used more in cases where there is more risk anyway, and in urgent emergency situations.

But that doesn't mean no one needs a c-section. And if you do and that has been agreed by a consultant, telling you to try for a vaginal birth is a bad idea.

Lizzie Yes I am older too so sadly none of this surprises me. This is what happens when the Tories are in power. Nothing will improve until they are no longer in power.

one party last time did campaign on higher taxes and more for the NHS. (and it wasn't UKIP)

'nah' said the electorate. We get what we deserve.

Flowerpot Money is wasted on things like agency staff because there is not enough money in the budget to have enough staff and retain them. If there was actually enough staff, and that includes things like cleaners, lots of problems would no longer exist. Nobody can run a quality service to members of the public, and simply not have enough staff, and the most skilled staff jumping ship.

specialsubject Agreed. Oh and last time Tories were in, schools went down the pan as well with funding cuts.
If you keep voting for shit public services, that is what you will get.

Vote for parties which will increase funding for the NHS

So where is the money coming from then ?

Perhaps increase the efficency and managment of the HNS?.

Haha. That has been the message for years even though all independent research shows that NHS is actually a pretty efficient healthcare organisation.

There is money around, an absolute fortune is being spent paying consultants and lawyers around Brexit. I don't expect we will ever publically know the full cost, but it will be staggering.

So where is the money coming from then ?

By ensuring people pay the tax they're supposed to? that would be a good start

You know if anyone in power actually wanted to improve the NHS they would listen to staff on the front line. I have been in hospital a number of times because of a chronic illness and some things make a big difference.

• Enough HCAs on the ward to help those who need it
• Dedicated cleaners attached to wards rather than contracted out - these wards are cleaner
• Don't contract out catering. always much more flexibility when provided in house
• Have enough supplies, basic but not always there. I have had nurses or HCAs taking time to go round other wards to find something I need. Total waste of time, but the hospital keeps low stock of many basic things
• Increase staff in hospital pharmacies to reduce discharge time
• Have more Drs on at weekends

-Treat staff well so they want to stay

But all of these have cost implications

Lack of trained staff.
Also add obesity crisis as a factor leading to complications and maternal deaths......?

It would be interesting to know what the mortality rate in private care is. I know that some consultants will refuse to see a patient privately if they are too high risk, so that will slew the figures a bit, but as the private care providers usually also have NHS contracts, and use much of the same equipment etc, I would suggest that we should expect something closer to that in terms of avoidable incidents.

I used to work for the hospital where m baby was born so I know that there are considerable funding issues, as well as a lot of top down politics in birthing, but I didn’t realise how bad it had got.

@Timetogetup. Absolutely, as the demographic of our mothers has changed, so too have the challenges faced by the maternity system. Obesity, advanced maternal age, chronic health conditions - all have a knock-on effect on the level of care needed to ensure safety.

I haven’t seen this so I will have a read. My first child I had pre-eclampsia. Since then I have always had one midwife and one student in the room. I’m not even left alone when they take their breaks.
I don’t know if being a high risk means I’m luckier with care ratio or it’s my hospital. I have only had one birth where I was sharing a midwife.
I know that has been one anesthetist on duty for the entire maternity dept. What scares me is that is that if you need a emc there is only a hairs breath of capitcity to deal with that. If all theatres are full I’d hate to think what happens.

Because managing services isn't actually rocket science, the difficulty is a lack of money. So we have ridiculous things such as bed managers phoning round to find spare beds. We never used to have these posts because there were enough beds. Money gets wasted because hospitals have to respond to stupid situations like this.

Also A&E deals with cuts elsewhere. So when mental health gets cut, people end up turning up there. Social care gets cut, people end up there.

And the health service that has the best health outcomes for the amount of money it spends is Cuba. Because it spends a lot on health prevention. Hospitals are shit, but less people are ill. That was happening a bit here before, but health prevention has been drastically cut. A great short term saving, stupid in the long run. Similar with various initiatives to prevent falls in older people.

Also pre natal and post natal care has a big impact on deaths in maternity. A number of deaths actually happen after the baby is born and everything looks fine. Our post natal wards are shit, chronically underfunded, and not fit for purpose.