to just be appalled and feel utterly powerless

[Misstomrs]

The BBC news today has an article that 1 in 5 births have an incident or near miss that could result in harm (including terminal harm) for a mother or her baby at birth.

My own birth was appalling mis-managed and since then (18 months ago) I have met with the hospital and the University that provided the trainee who was involved in our care and who almost killed our DS. It’s been genuinely draining and traumatic for me to keep going over what happened, but I have because I don’t want anyone else to go through what we did as a family. It was all completely avoidable.

I’m left feeling that maybe it wasn’t worth it. The system just seems so broken. What’s the point?

The lottery of care is one of the main things that puts me off having any more DCs. Both the hospital consultant and Univeristy team were appalled when I explained that to them, but it’s true.

AIBU? And more importantly, what can WE do about it?

I appreciate current funding issues, but the maternity/midwifery problems pre-date the current austerity! I had mine back in the middle of the Labour years during which they trebled the spending on the NHS, and the staff were whingeing about lack of funding etc then too! (Though there always seemed a lot of staff just milling about chatting). Overall, not a good experience particularly on the wards. No one seemed to know what was going on. My son ended up in neo-natal for a while as he was premature which was the only place he got any proper care as the staff in that unit were brilliant. But as for the ward/theatre staff, not impressed at all - they didn't show any sign of being caring and compassionate.

crunchymint
Because managing services isn't actually rocket science, the difficulty is a lack of money

I have to disagree again. The NHS is a complex organisation, with a difficult culture and providing complex services in a rapidly changing environment. It needs intelligent people at the helm, NOT NHS managers who have developed limited know how only with the NHS, NOT middle managers who are promoted clinical with no management knowledge, nor KPMG/PwC/McKinsey who have shafted the NHS for years draining it and then come back again and again to sort out the last mess their recommendations caused in the first place.

It needs smarter decision making first. Only then will it know how much it needs. No government of any colour is going to give more money to an organisation that is already spending its funds irresponsibly. Sort the existing spend first, bring in brains from outside the NHS, sack the big consultancies, then watch it transform.

I don't think just pumping money into the current system is the answer either. Maybe we should look at countries with good healthcare systems (good for all not just the wealthy) and ask how they do it? Maybe the solution will not look like the old NHS at all. Maybe that doesn't matter.

so sorry you had this experience OP.

My children (now 10 & 6.5) were born 3.5 years apart. I went through exactly the same process with each of them - same GP, same maternity hospital etc. However the deterioration in the services in those 3 years was astonishing all all too plain to see and feel. I could easily compare how stretched the services had become - and I don't imagine it has got any better.

Thankfully I had 2 straightforward births, however I've never felt so unimportant and poorly treated as when I had DD2.

Of course there’s higher risk associated with CS vs Vaginal birth. CS is major surgery and often initiated as an emergency or CS performed because of other clinical risk factors.

YANBU Misstomrs, not a bit.

My ante natal care was very good but that was simply because I was under the care of a gynae consultant throughout. I therefore got to see the same person each time. Midwives however, were ever changing, I did not see the same midwife twice. The post natal care was extremely poor, I still remember one of the nurses standing at the entrance to the ward (I was put on a ward which was to them full of the difficult C-section cases) saying, "some of you will be back in 9 months time". No I thought. And I never returned. I was frankly heartened when the whole block was eventually demolished to make way for a new housing development.

There is a report in The Times today saying that the NHS spends £4.5m per annum on prescriptions for anti dandruff shampoo. There is money wasted on other less than essential prescriptions, such indigestion tablets. We know £ millions of drugs go out of date in hospital pharmacies and have to be thrown away. No wonder essential care is poor when you see this waste and no wonder the Govt does not want to pour good money after bad into a service that already costs £120 billion a year.

Until the NHS and politicians look critically at the service, and agree that certain things should not be provided, we will never provide a good service where it is imperative to do so.

Labour or Conservative - it really makes no difference to the black hole of the NHS. Under Labour it was continual angst about the service as well. We are an aging population with more ill people. The NHS needs to be refocused and some tough decisions need to be taken. It is very obvious we cannot and will not pay for everything it is trying to do at the moment.

We are facing very tough years ahead with Brexit. Our overseas labour supply will be reduced. Stagnant wages mean a smaller tax take. Lack of productivity and sales will mean redundancies. Our Governments borrow and borrow and borrow. Our children cannot afford a Labour government that spends now and puts more and more debt onto our children and their children. A dose of reality is needed and that includes what the NHS is expected to do.

I appreciate current funding issues, but the maternity/midwifery problems pre-date the current austerity! I had mine back in the middle of the Labour years during which they trebled the spending on the NHS, and the staff were whingeing about lack of funding etc then too!

Completely agree.

This situation is never going to change until all parties stop playing it as a political football, leave party lines at the door and have an honest conversation about the NHS.

No party has handled it well imo.

Perhaps that £4.5 million is wasted, Perhaps it is misreporting and there is a reason those shampoos are being prescribed. NICE was set up to stop things being prescribed that should not be.
But I know my very elderly gran was prescribed a special shampoo as for health reasons she could not use those you can buy in shops.

Yes we do have to pay everything. What you mean is that poor people just have to accept not getting healthcare. Fuck that.

I have a chronic illness and my care was much better under Labour. I do not only go to 1 clinic but a number of them, and have been in and out of hospital. Under both I had some poor care, as have some friends in private hospitals. But overall it was better under Labour. Simple example when I had relapse got a home visit the next day. When this happened two years ago I had to wait 6 weeks to visit a clinic. The difference was astounding and the nurse practioner I saw at the clinic was very apologetic.

Incidentally my DP works in a contracted out health service. The figures might look better because the massaging that goes on, the service is worse.

I had my first baby in 2002, so 5yrs into New Labour. When we were shown around the maternity unit, the nurse pointed out a load of admin offices, and said they used to be delivery rooms.

Indeed, I was whipped out of that room pretty quick after having my baby - I had barely drawn breath - baby was plonked on my boob for a few minutes, then I was ushered into a bathroom, with DH bringing the bags out etc, because they urgently needed the room.

I'm a staunch left winger - but New Labour's policy of pouring a load of money into the NHS, well, it was great, but a lot of it didn't go into the right places. Went into admin/managers rather than more clinical staff and of course, cleaning staff.

It’s shocking, the mess that is, our NHS. All aspects of it, especially mental health. OP, this sounds utterly dreadful and you’ve done the right thing but you’ll get nowhere with your complaint unless you DID die or were harmed. Dreadful.

I had my DS 17 years ago and it was no different then. It’s worse now. I ended up, despite all the careful planning, having my son with his father only just getting there by the skin on his teeth (despite my protestations, they insisted I was “nowhere near needing to push and to get off the bed and go have a stroll”. There was no time for pain relief (I’d had 2 paracetamol an hour before he actually arrived) and the gas and air wasn’t working. So, 38 yrs old, first baby, on my own (parents abroad and DH not notified) with a gas and air spout in my mouth, with nothing coming out of it. They told me I needed to “calm down” and that there was nothing wrong with the gas and air. And no, there was no time for pethidine/epidural...nothing.

That evening, on the ward, I had first the midwife, then the ward sister and then a woman clearly from management (she had a clipboard and overly friendly manner) all visit me to see if I (and baby) were doing fine. I was just so crushed by the whole thing. And then, to rope it all, the young woman opposite me was telling her husband that “they had to bring me a portable gas and air canister, as the one in the wall wasn’t working”. So, I had my son in 2 paracetamol. He is an only child.

I have a chronic illness and my care was much better under Labour.

So have I. My care was no better than it is now tbh.

In fact I have less procedure and surgery cancelled now than before.

I am pregnant and this did worry me but on radio 4 they did say that the definition of "harm" included mums banging their heads in the shower...query whether that is the NHS's fault and something to be scared of or just a thing that happens when you are knackered.

The UK has a staggering number of stillbirths, too, compared to other developed nations. It's shocking.

And yes, after Brexit, the staffing levels will drop dangerously low. Who’d want to go into nursing now with crap wages and a soon-to-be massive Uni loan to pay for? Not me and I was a nurse for 26 yrs. Ridiculous.

Jeremy Hunt should be horsewhipped or at the very least, have that smile wiped off his face every time the git is onTV.

I think continuity of care is one of the biggest risk factors. Being with the same MW/obgyn throughout means that they will know your health, your risk factors, you etc. and that has to help.

With DS1, I had him in the UK, and while I can't actually fault the MWs and the delivery team, I had a near miss myself post-natally because the registrar who wrote up my anti-coagulant gave me highly ambiguous instructions, which meant I ended up taking a triple dose of warfarin instead of the correct dose. Luckily for me I wasn't bleeding heavily! IF the haematology consultant had done that write up, the near miss would never have happened but the obgyn reg didn't really understand the situation. I did report it because it could have been very dangerous (wasn't, in my case) and because the reg needed to learn from it.

Had DS2 in Australia. 5 years older, higher risk pg, decided to go with a private obgyn because that way I wouldn't have to KEEP telling them about the clotting condition, the other things I had going on etc. Yes I had to pay for his services, but it was the best thing I did for our health.

As proven when I had my appendix out last year (in Australia) - I kept asking them when I was getting more anti-coagulant, and where they prescribing some for me to take home, but they kept saying no because SOMEHOW, they were failing to read the bit that said "Thrombotic condition" which means that, post-op, I should always be given anti-coagulants for 5-7 days. I had to go to my GP as soon as I could (out of hospital on the Sunday, GP on the monday) to get this sorted because I didn't feel like running the risk of a DVT or PE due to lack of anti-coagulant. I reported this when I went to my post-op follow up as well.

SO MUCH of the "near miss" situation is failure to read the notes, be clear about the situation, follow up on basic protocols - some of it is due to lack of time, tiredness etc. but sometimes it's down to lack of due diligence.

I used to work in hospital labs and have seen that in action myself too. Wrongly labelled blood, for e.g., because the doctor taking it was carrying the wrong notes and neglected to ask the patient their name/d.o.b etc for clarity. As it happened, they had 2 patients with very similar names in the same ward - but different dates of birth, so ASKING them for their 3 points of ID would have differentiated. Luckily for the patients, they had different blood groups and were already in our system, or it could have been very nasty indeed.

@SukiTheDog, with respect, there are many, many women who give birth without even the 2 paracetamol. It might not have been your intended birth plan, but if your birth being too close to allow time for an epidural is no-one's fault.

Another matter that we haven't looked at is the necessity of endless paperwork. The notes hang over midwives at every point of care. The reason behind the necessity for so much paperwork is the fear of litigation. And the thing that seems to be leading towards the trend of litigation is women claiming they didn't get adequate care during labour. Why didn't they get the time required for this care? Perhaps because the midwife had to complete the paperwork. So the paperwork that prevents adequate time for caring is essentially causing the very thing it's supposed to be preventing. So stupid.

Yes. Labour will definitely fix it.

PFI in the NHS is one of the biggest causes of funding issues.

I wonder who got us into that mess?

I’ll give you a clue; they wear red ties.

For comparison, try giving birth in America.
Once in an ER i saw a notice in English and Spanish saying no one in labour would be turned away.
Those are your options. Go through your pregnancy with no care, then hope to God that when you stagger into the nearest ER (hoping it is one that might well let you deliver or could turn you away) there is someone available to help you.
I had my first DD in Spain. Pretty basic. Domineering midwife who told me us foreign girls were wussy for wanting pain relief. Lucky for me mine shot out, easy peasy, 6 hours...but no Health Visitor afterwards and it was only because of the mothers of partners friends coming into help that me and DD survived intact int he days after taking her home. I shall draw a discrete veil over my own mothers involvement.
Having DD2 in England (14 years later) on the NHS in a very busy hospital that had a maternity unit under special measures due to incidents, I felt well cared for ante natal but the wards afterwards were nothing short of bedlam. Really distressing in fact.
More money, more training. Better out reach for women for whom english is not a first language and sometimes miss out on proper care ante natal.
It can work. The structures are there but they need support.
Sorry for the ramble but I have seen two other systems and by far the most comprehensive and reassuring has been the NHS.

"The BBC news today has an article that 1 in 5 births have an incident or near miss that could result in harm (including terminal harm) for a mother or her baby at birth."

Yes - there is a lot of stuff said about "listening to your body" at birth, my body said "I'm going to push this baby out or die trying"...so it is a bloody good job there was surgical team on call!