AIBU to ask WTF is going on with the UK state education system?

[pootleperkinandposy22]

OK it’s a long one...Have things really changed this much since I went to school in the eighties? Secondary school has been a baptism of fire for my kids.
I am so sick of all of this. People tell me that our school is bad and we should move our kids but I don’t see any better schools. OFSTED graded this school GOOD. What does that say about OFSTED? Anyone who thinks theirs is better-do you REALLY know what it is like? What about the teachers- what do you think?

I do not think that the education system is fit for purpose. Our kids are forced to go there and now that most of them are academies, there is no come back for their failings. Teachers train for the incentives and leave as fast as they can, getting jobs in the private sector and lifelong learning sector where they know they will have an easier time.
There is a constant lack of teachers, too many overpaid temporary staff who are not appropriately qualified and many teachers off sick (probably with stress!).
They are hot house exam factories who fudge the figures by applying pressure to get children to drop subjects they think they might fail and pressuring the more able to take more and more exams.

This is designed to make parents withdraw any children who do not fit the requirements for great exam results and pay for private schools or Home educate. How many people can do those things?

It is going the same way as the NHS...

The government is incredibly short sighted. They are storing up huge problems for the future by failing so many children who will still go on the unemployment register (albeit a couple of years later) or commit crime/suicide.

Why is it that the government is so out of touch with reality? Is it because most of our ministers sit in their ivory towers just assuming to know what to do with the masses? Most of them AFAIK attended private schools so have absolutely no idea what is going on.

Why should these incompetents be allowed to run the country just because they went to the top schools?

Senior leadership team are unreachable, overpaid sales people; only present at recruitment events and performances and any problems are deflected on to the over worked heads of year.

Behaviour and discipline are appalling. ‘Problem’ kids (you know- the arsonists/one who bring knives in to school/ones who continually beat up the younger ones) are brushed aside and ignored or given ‘special’ responsibilities to help build their self –esteem. The hard working bread and butter kids who just try to get on with it are ignored and not given any privileges or rewards. This creates resentment amongst the kids and demotivates the ones who would have the ability to achieve.

One of my DC’s is in the so-called top set. Not through giftedness but just because they want to work and most of the others do not. That appears to be the only requirement. DH thinks this will protect them from the disruptive kids but some difficult kids (who cannot cope with the work!) have been put in this set now too, to encourage them to try. This doesn’t work. It just stops ALL of them from learning!

Btw even if my DC could get in to a Grammar school, firstly we are uncomfortable with the pressure there and secondly, there aren’t any Grammar schools in this area. Why is that also a postcode lottery?

There are looked after kids who are completely messed up and understandably bring their problems to school. Self-harming is a daily occurrence, they are crying out for help, emotional blackmailing their friends and trying to kill themselves on a regular basis.
The teachers really don’t care about this. All they say is that they know about it and tell the concerned kids to go away and get on with their work!

The teachers are over stretched to the point of desensitisation for the children, they seem to see so many problems that they just do not care anymore.

These children are also physically and emotionally abusive to the other children. They call out continually in class, swearing at the teachers and goading the kids and generally being disruptive.
They are not punished quote :-
“...because they are in care and have a hard enough life anyway”

This is the only way these children are helped? By cutting them some slack instead of helping them with their problems? What about the other children?

I spoke to a social worker friend of mine and she said that the child who tried to kill themselves would probably be seeing a psychiatrist once a week anyway and there is only so much they can do and that they don’t know how to put these broken children back together again.

Why do children who are distressed as much as this, have to go to school and be forced to learn? How could you possibly concentrate on school work when you are so unhappy you are trying to take your own life?

Can any teachers comment-is this highly unusual to see children doing this or is it seen in most schools? I’m trying to see if it is just a really poor school who cannot deal with these problems effectively.

As for the kids with SEN. We have seen friends whose DC’s support has been withdrawn with the excuse that these kids have made so much progress that they do not need the help anymore. This is simply not true. They struggle, fail and are miserable and act out causing further disruption to the school.

The excuse every time is there is not enough money. Why not? Stop paying temporary staff over inflated wages. Perhaps stop subsidising the bars in parliament and use that money. How about stop giving MPs pay rises and pay them the same as public sector workers. That should help!

Arrgh! Ok rant over. I am just disappointed. Is it possible to have a decent state education and enjoy it too? Is our school just really really bad and we are very unlucky or is this just what we all have to put up with?

If you got this far then thank you for reading!

Sorry but as a parent of a primary school child in London I don’t recognise any of this. Where do all of you live where all of the schools in the area are so bad??!!

My DD is having a far happier time at school with caring dedicated teachers than I did at primary school in the 80s.

The kids (mostly) were a little scared of the teachers and now as someone up thread said – the teachers have far less power in this way-kids know their rights

I think that's an archaic way of thinking.

To earn respect the children don't need to be scared of authority figures. In fact I would say the opposite is true.

At my DD's primary, discipline is very important. The head of discipline is by far the favourite teacher in the school. He's utterly beloved.

I think if as a teacher you're ruling by fear you're in the wrong profession. It's certainly not my experience of my own and my DD's education.

No ReinettePompadour, you really shouldn’t have to be worrying about schools. Sorry to hear what you’ve been through, I hope things are getting better

I was really shocked at the 5 GCSE thing. I wonder if they are planning on rolling this out across the country. Or is it already happening in more schools?
SweetieBaby do you know?

Apart from the advantages for the schools in the league table stuff, I guess the idea is that it should free a lot of teachers time so they will be able to spend it on those who are struggling? If the schools all focus on those core 5 they will increase the basic level of education for all school leavers and relieve some of the pressure for teachers.

However, I understood that the number of GCSE’s that were taken over one year were important and that’s why it wouldn’t be a good idea to take the others the following year? Maybe that’s not the case?

It would be interesting to see what the Universities reaction to this would be; Medicine is so competitive to get in to. Would they be able to make allowances for these students I wonder?

Although judging by some of the posts on MN I do think that teachers get little respect. There are some extraordinary posts lambasting teachers. There was one the other day where a parent wanting to storm the school because her dd wasn't permitted to leave the classroom to retrieve her water bottle - mid lesson - and she was flippin' eight ! If you extrapolate that attitude to around the country and with far more - er bolshy parents supporting bad behaviour and you can see what teachers are up against.

It should be an expectation that every child should be able to read, write and do basic arithmetic. I find it scandalous that any child should leave the system without these skills

Indeed I have to agree. There were some statistics a few years ago which said something like 40% of 16 year olds didn't even achieve the basic living levels of numeracy and literacy. That's awful. I've been saying for years that there's no point in even trying to teach kids a foreign language or a science if they are barely literate/numerate, yet that's what the schools are doing. Kids are being pushed up through the system and being forced into subjects they've no hope of achieving in. They're being set up to fail. Kids who are struggling with the basics shouldn't be going anywhere near lessons that are heading for exams in sciences, languages, humanities etc - they should be having extra literacy/numeracy lessons first to try to bring them up to standard - if that means they miss out on science/language lessons, then so be it, if it means they have to re-do a year, then so be it. The basics are far more important. A grade 4/5 in Maths & English only, is far better than grade1/2/3s in 8 subjects.

It looks like state education has probably been poor in some schools for generations then. Just as state education has been good in some schools for generations too.

Why the huge variation in standards between schools though?

My school in the 80's wasn't brilliant as I've already said but it wasn't as bad as my Dc's (and quite a few schools that other people's Dcs on here go to).

btw The (v. few) teachers who do control the classes in the Dc's school do not use fear - they are the most popular and respected, teachers there!

I think much can be said for a school's culture too. We live in, what some people describe as, 'a yuppy commuter' town with grammar schools. I think general standards and expectations of all the schools are really quite high. But its not always the schools in the more prosperous parts of town that perform the best. Like our primary is in a very mixed part of town but is performing well and that I'd say is down to the culture of the school and the moral and cohesiveness of the staff and parents. Also, our school has a higher than average number of SEN and children where English is not their first language too but its latest KS2 results are still higher than the schools in more well to do areas that are 99.9% white british and less SEN.

Lots of issues here.
Firstly and possibly controversially, I think a lot a people are not fit to become parents. There is no excuse for having children it is 100% preventable but that's another thread.
The children of these parents spend time in school and begin at a disadvantage, many of them do not have the basic societal norms and mores installed in them
They are basically Ferrell.
The teachers and assistants then have to spend an awful lot of time 'parenting' these unparented children.
On top of this all children are expected to make progress but how can they when members of staff are having to control the Ferrell children?
Secondly if you want more money spent on education do not vote conservative. They do not care about state education in deprived areas.
That is not to say that labours education policy is better, but at least they spend more money on such schools.
Academies receive less money so something has to give.
The top dogs are overpaid.
The staff who actually spend time with your dc and make a difference are being squeezed and made to work harder for less.
There is no surprise that staff leave, the pressure is enormous.

BarrowInFurnessBusDepot I am so sorry for you both. That is just horrible, some people who you think would help, seem to have become desensitised somehow.
I completely agree, how can DC’s learn anything if they are so unhappy. Is your DS happy again now that you have removed him-I guess it takes a lot of time to try and put that behind you both.

Why the huge variation in standards between schools though?

Which is the killer question which needs addressing. It's the lack of consistency that's the problem. There are different schools with similar intakes/funding etc producing completely different outcomes. We have to find out why. Some comps are amazing, others are crap. Some academies are woeful, others are brilliant, some LEA controlled schools are good, some bad. Some single sex schools are wonderful, others a let down. There's just no consistency and nothing seems to be improving it, decade after decade. Just look at the text book thread - some teachers use them, others don't, even when the school has them, some schools have them, some don't. Look at homework threads, some schools use online homework systems, some don't. I think there's so little consistency that it's impossible to actually evaluate what works and what doesn't.

The school offering a maximum of 5 GCSEs and the rest BTECs are incredibly incredibly rare - I find it hard to belive actually - progress 8 requires 2 science, 1 maths, 1 english (and virtually everyone does 2 english), one humanity and 1 language - that's 7 needed just to make the floor standard. So I suspect someone has misunderstood.

so no of course this isn;t being rolled out across the country Kids doing fewer is better though - we often hear of kids doing 12 or 14 GCSEs, and tbh anything over 10 is unnecessary.

GCSEs are two/three year courses, and should be taken in one go mainly - doing 5 one year then 5 the next is poor practice and progress 8 at least attempts to stop this happening.

You ask why the huge difference in schools -you do know that kids also vary hugely? Their abilities, home life, support, aspirations? Lots of schools have a large number of kids with very very difficult backgrounds, whereas a lot of other schools have kids with lovely supportive parents. Hardly surprising they're different.

They are basically Ferrell.

Nice autocorrect!

You ask why the huge difference in schools -you do know that kids also vary hugely?

Yes, of course I know. But there is variation even within each school. I.e. different teachers have very different methods of teaching, different ideas re discipline, etc. Even in the same subject, same pupils, completely different way of teaching. That's nothing to do with the variation of pupils, different home lifes, etc - it's the kids being taught very differently as they move from room to room or teacher to teacher.

Teaching is an art as much as a science. There are certain things that we know work better than others, but there’s nothing that works all the time with every student in every class. In fact some teaching methods which work well with some groups of children may actually work against a different group.
Plus teachers have personalities and have to teach in a way that suits them as well as their classes.

Plus teachers have personalities and have to teach in a way that suits them as well as their classes.

But what if their way doesn't suit their class? I've seen it first hand with my son. For the first 3 years of secondary, the class was the same, no setting, no options, etc. The same 30 kids went to the same lessons, all day every day. Yet, the teaching style and outcomes would fluctuate massively as would discipline issues.

The current education system was designed when the world was very different. For example if I was a merchant, I would write a letter in Portsmouth and put it on a ship and the recipient in say Australia or New Zealand or wherever had to be able to read it. I also wouldn't have had calculators or spreadsheets to help me do my accounts so my mental and written calculations had to be accurate. Hence why reading, writing and arithmetic were so important.

In today's working world, they aren't necessarily the most important skills anymore. Critical thinking in Maths for example is more important than blindly following a formula. Being computer literate enough to independently research something and savvy enough to assess its reliability is another important skill. Many teachers are aware that what is being taught isn't what is needed to make the child successful once they leave school.

No government is brave enough to address this. Instead they just push the pre-existing skills further and further down the curriculum in the name of high standards. So we see more and more children struggling with a curriculum that is indeed getting harder but is no more useful to the children. We then get stuck in this cycle of ofsted & whichever government is in power pushing harder to 'drive up standards' whilst we slide further and further down educational league tables and countries with a far more common sense approach overtake us. It's an incredibly disheartening system to work in - the worst aspect being seeing truly great teachers who try to foster a curiosity and a love of learning in children, being labelled as a failure because some of their pupils can't correct a spelling error independently or use a modal verb properly.

The looked after children issue is also one I take seriously too, I do believe looked after children should be in school because many are already starting life on the back foot without spoiling their future employment opportunities too. However, I agree with you that there will be days that they have too much to cope with so expecting them to stay in class on task without disrupting others is unrealistic.

Sadly, I think too much has to change to make the education system in this country great again (?) and a lot of it would be controversial or fly in the face of the whole raising standards doctrine. I don't think I'll see it happen in my lifetime- I'm more likely to see it under funded and ran into the ground and the whole thing blamed on second rate teachers. Similar to what's happening in the NHS at the minute.

Thanks pootle, yes she has a job she loves and with a company that further down the line would support her going to uni to get her degree (she has the grades already as she was effectively a year ahead previously at school) but she's not interested in that as the thing with school really put her off.

Her health is better than it was then of course but she still has to take care but that's not caused by the school.

The lack of discipline all over society is dreadful, I'm gonna sound really old now and of course nobody wants a return to widespread accepted abuse but that everyone is now afraid to discipline children for fear of accusations or worse putting themselves in danger, has led to a situation where they LITERALLY believe (and sometimes do) they can get away with murder.

"What do you expect the government to do? Completely screw up the economy to fund education?"

Wow! Brainwashed much?! This govt can find money for plenty of things we DON'T need, but seemingly don't WANT to spend on education, nhs, homelessness, social care... Things we all NEED!

Also it's SO shortsighted! Good education is what makes people productive, employable, fulfilled, confident... A well educated population boosts the economy, doesn't wreck it!

Lunas, you may luckily have not experienced it in your children's schools but it does happen

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/pupil-14-slashed-face-knife-school-canteen/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-40105366

www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/12-year-old-caught-knife-dundee-school/

Couldn't disagree more about basics no longer being necessary. A computer (even one as basic as a calculator) can only do as directed its limited. If you mistype a figure the end calculation will be wrong if you don't know basic arithmetic how would you know it's wrong? Same applies to designing formula on spreadsheets, knowing if the autocorrect word is the right word, right spelling. And computer programmes still really struggle when it comes to grammar.

Arithmetic is the foundation of all technology - honestly go speak to a programmer, coder even a website editor and ask if they could do their job if they didn't have basic maths skills.

No, good discipline, authority, good quality teaching MUST be reinstated in our schools.

As an English grad I was shocked on another thread to see that Jane Austen was being taught as being a Victorian writer! A quick glance on Google would have shown Austen wasn't even alive during the Victorian period and her work is influenced by regency morals and attitudes. How the hell have we got to a point where a teacher teaching at GCSE level doesn't know this?!

Surprisingly I agree with you op....my son was in the top sets at secondary,he was pushed to his limits for A grades..my friends daughter was in the bottom sets and she had teaching assistants teaching her maths and English,her English teacher only had a GCSEs in English ,nothing higher..I know because I knew the lady personally...obviously my friends daughter failed most things.my son with his top sets and extra lessons after school every day ,did amazingly well.but it wasn't fair,and the school didn't care how stressed he was...

In today's working world, they aren't necessarily the most important skills anymore.

Couldn't disagree more with that. Yes, we have the technological "crutches" such as computers, smartphones, google etc., but "you don't know what you don't know", How do you know to google for something you don't know even exists? How can you have a conversation if you know nothing and have to google everything?

"Garbage in, garbage out" has never been so prominent as it is in today's society. I see it every single day. I look at invoices, spreadsheets, etc., which are so crazily stupidly wrong, it makes the person who created them look a complete moron - simply because they've mis-keyed something, or misunderstood some simple formula - too much reliance on these crutches takes away basic common sense. Even with calculators, some people still foul up simple percentages as they don't understand netting down and grossing up. Even in real life for the average Joe Public, do you really expect them to get out their smart phone to work out simple percentages or fractions when trying to work out the best deal in Tesco?

As for literacy, in so many cases, a wrong spelling or poor grammar can change the entire meaning of a sentence. Bad enough in normal conversation, but in, say trying to understand a tradesman's quotation or a contract, it's very easy to completely mis-understand and land yourself massively out of pocket or with something you didn't want.

So, I think numeracy and literacy are just as important as ever.

Where I think things could change is in the teaching of science, languages and humanities, which are less important these days as they are more suited to technological "crutches". Yes, they remain vitally important for those likely to need those skills in employment etc., but for the average Joe Public, rudimentary teaching at relatively low levels could give them pointers which they could use to research themselves throughout their lives, and as for languages, apps etc are brilliant at translating (and a GCSE would never make you competent in another language anyway).

I think when the OP said that people are forced to go to a specific school she means that they are oversubscribed with the admittance radius shrinking more and more every year. Some children can't even attend their local school but have to take a bus ride miles away from home. I can only imagine how early little children 4 year olds have to wake up in order for their parent to catch the bus, bot being able to find a space for the buggy, then having to wait even longer without even having the opportunity for early sleep time as their parents might work until late and will still need to spend time with them and put them to sleep. Like many pp have pointed out there has been uncontrolled building without new schools, refusal collections problems, overcrowding, rats infestations, GPs, hospitals, libraries and police stations closing down. LAs ignore the highways department's recommendation for already congested roads which can't get any more.

I worked in London schools for twenty years, a convent school, inner city comprehensives and finally a private school, not for an easier life, but to stay sane. The UK government has over decades decimated the education system. Teachers are severely overworked, it's an impossible situation. 80 hour weeks are the norm constant pressure and NO gratitude. I moved to Ireland two years ago and have a teaching job in what is considered a difficult school. Totally inclusive, over 1400 students and I love it. The difference is, I am not hounded by observations, paper work and the culture of having to be in from 7am to 6pm, I am not constantly asked for data etc. Complete autonomy and as a result ALL my energy goes into teaching. Money is put into small classes for SEN kids, one to one support for children who may be Downs Syndrom or disabled, lots of EAL for refugees and most importantly, as far as I can see, teachers are trusted and therefore do a good job. The difference is akin to two different planets. teavhers here LIKE their job, are respected and trusted. Successive UK governments have derided and shafted teachers in the UK and I would not want my children there. The average school here is akin to a private school in the UK, and I speak as a very experienced teacher.

You make some interesting points OutComeTheWolves BUT as you said that is realistically a long way away and we all have to fit in to today’s society. So for now, I do think that getting the basics right should be the priority.

Yes chocorabbit. This is our catchment school. Suprisingly though, it was oversubscribed a couple of years ago (not now though!) and all the parents were worried that our kids wouldn’t get in!

If you look at the OFSTED and league tables (yes I know it’s not all about that -it is still the best performer in those tables!) it was the best for miles...bar the Faith school (need to be religious and we are not in catchment).

The provision is just very poor in this area. It was the best of a bad bunch. I think many who attend this school (including me) just don’t realise what is available in other areas because they just haven’t experienced it, so think that it’s the norm.

Generally, it is unfair that people have to travel out of area for better schools and just breeds resentment for those who do reside in catchment!

Apparently Grammar schools are more disciplined and nicer to be in but the nearest (without catchment) is nearly 2 hours away on public transport and that means pressure, passing an exam and most only have intakes in year 7 from what I understand anyway.

To those of you that have changed schools, how do you find a good one though? I note some suggestions thank you, about staff turnover (how do you find out about that?) and single academy trusts but what else do you look for- there is only so much you can glean from a look round!!

We can travel, I can and do offer plenty of help at home and am willing to move BUT that is a very expensive and risky option for no guarantee- I don’t want to mess my kids around.

The government is incredibly short sighted.

It's deliberate. They are deliberately running down public services.

^They are not punished quote :-
“...because they are in care and have a hard enough life anyway”^

This is not acceptable. Not giving them boundaries and reinforcing good behaviour will do them no favours long term.

No idea what the answer is. I'm in Wales so things are different here - thank God for the Welsh Government, for all it's faults it does good as well.