AIBU to ask WTF is going on with the UK state education system?

[pootleperkinandposy22]

OK it’s a long one...Have things really changed this much since I went to school in the eighties? Secondary school has been a baptism of fire for my kids.
I am so sick of all of this. People tell me that our school is bad and we should move our kids but I don’t see any better schools. OFSTED graded this school GOOD. What does that say about OFSTED? Anyone who thinks theirs is better-do you REALLY know what it is like? What about the teachers- what do you think?

I do not think that the education system is fit for purpose. Our kids are forced to go there and now that most of them are academies, there is no come back for their failings. Teachers train for the incentives and leave as fast as they can, getting jobs in the private sector and lifelong learning sector where they know they will have an easier time.
There is a constant lack of teachers, too many overpaid temporary staff who are not appropriately qualified and many teachers off sick (probably with stress!).
They are hot house exam factories who fudge the figures by applying pressure to get children to drop subjects they think they might fail and pressuring the more able to take more and more exams.

This is designed to make parents withdraw any children who do not fit the requirements for great exam results and pay for private schools or Home educate. How many people can do those things?

It is going the same way as the NHS...

The government is incredibly short sighted. They are storing up huge problems for the future by failing so many children who will still go on the unemployment register (albeit a couple of years later) or commit crime/suicide.

Why is it that the government is so out of touch with reality? Is it because most of our ministers sit in their ivory towers just assuming to know what to do with the masses? Most of them AFAIK attended private schools so have absolutely no idea what is going on.

Why should these incompetents be allowed to run the country just because they went to the top schools?

Senior leadership team are unreachable, overpaid sales people; only present at recruitment events and performances and any problems are deflected on to the over worked heads of year.

Behaviour and discipline are appalling. ‘Problem’ kids (you know- the arsonists/one who bring knives in to school/ones who continually beat up the younger ones) are brushed aside and ignored or given ‘special’ responsibilities to help build their self –esteem. The hard working bread and butter kids who just try to get on with it are ignored and not given any privileges or rewards. This creates resentment amongst the kids and demotivates the ones who would have the ability to achieve.

One of my DC’s is in the so-called top set. Not through giftedness but just because they want to work and most of the others do not. That appears to be the only requirement. DH thinks this will protect them from the disruptive kids but some difficult kids (who cannot cope with the work!) have been put in this set now too, to encourage them to try. This doesn’t work. It just stops ALL of them from learning!

Btw even if my DC could get in to a Grammar school, firstly we are uncomfortable with the pressure there and secondly, there aren’t any Grammar schools in this area. Why is that also a postcode lottery?

There are looked after kids who are completely messed up and understandably bring their problems to school. Self-harming is a daily occurrence, they are crying out for help, emotional blackmailing their friends and trying to kill themselves on a regular basis.
The teachers really don’t care about this. All they say is that they know about it and tell the concerned kids to go away and get on with their work!

The teachers are over stretched to the point of desensitisation for the children, they seem to see so many problems that they just do not care anymore.

These children are also physically and emotionally abusive to the other children. They call out continually in class, swearing at the teachers and goading the kids and generally being disruptive.
They are not punished quote :-
“...because they are in care and have a hard enough life anyway”

This is the only way these children are helped? By cutting them some slack instead of helping them with their problems? What about the other children?

I spoke to a social worker friend of mine and she said that the child who tried to kill themselves would probably be seeing a psychiatrist once a week anyway and there is only so much they can do and that they don’t know how to put these broken children back together again.

Why do children who are distressed as much as this, have to go to school and be forced to learn? How could you possibly concentrate on school work when you are so unhappy you are trying to take your own life?

Can any teachers comment-is this highly unusual to see children doing this or is it seen in most schools? I’m trying to see if it is just a really poor school who cannot deal with these problems effectively.

As for the kids with SEN. We have seen friends whose DC’s support has been withdrawn with the excuse that these kids have made so much progress that they do not need the help anymore. This is simply not true. They struggle, fail and are miserable and act out causing further disruption to the school.

The excuse every time is there is not enough money. Why not? Stop paying temporary staff over inflated wages. Perhaps stop subsidising the bars in parliament and use that money. How about stop giving MPs pay rises and pay them the same as public sector workers. That should help!

Arrgh! Ok rant over. I am just disappointed. Is it possible to have a decent state education and enjoy it too? Is our school just really really bad and we are very unlucky or is this just what we all have to put up with?

If you got this far then thank you for reading!

I think teachers are doing an even better job now than they did in the past. We are pushing every child into the same academic route and it just doesn't suit them, we are asking schools to do things parents should be doing and parents are becoming lazier. We need to have more vocational schools for those children who are not academic. And we need more PRUs for children that misbehave, so when they are excluded they are not just palmed off to anther school to disrupt more children.

Teachers train for the incentives
Incentives exist in shortage areas only. You can’t speak for the thousands of people who train every week -the majority of which set out with a genuine desire to a make a difference.

too many overpaid temporary staff who are not appropriately qualified
Cover supervisor work pays between £50-60 a day. When you factor in 13weeks a year you can’t work and the many days you get no actual work, that is basically less than minimum wage. How is that overpaid?

they are hot house exam factories who fudge the figures by applying pressure to get children to drop subjects

Teachers ha e, to a greater or lesser extent, always taught to pass the test. Some schools focus on results. Other schools have very, very high value-added scores. Are you suggesting schools are fundamentally dishonest?

Senior leadership team are unreachable, overpaid sales people
Not unreachable in my experience. Better paid than teachers, yes. Sod all when compared with senior roles in industry.

CarrieBlue is correct in my experience. I've taught in state an independent schools. Teachers who have only taught in independent schools don't know they're born! And they are not better, on average. They may have mostly Oxbridge degrees but that doesn't make them better teachers!

And you know not every disruptive child is in care, right?

I should not have said that teachers don't care. What I meant was they don't SEEM to care. Perhaps they are doing things in the background to help these children who are struggling but my DCs and their friends are upset as they don't see any compassion when they report these incidents. It is incredibly distressing

What is it you expect us to do? Pastoral teams pick up issues such as self harm, depression etc. A teacher’s job is to teach. We cannot discuss one child’s situation with other children, even if we considered it appropriate. I don’t know one teacher who would turn away a distressed child who needed to talk. But not one of those would discuss what actions they may take with friends.

Of course teachers bloody care when the kids in their classes are self-harming or have attempted suicide (and it's sadly not as rare as you would hope). But what can we actually do about it? CAMHs funding is cut to the bone, and with the best will in the world, I'm a maths teacher totally untrained to be dealing with mental trauma in youth and it also really isn't my skill set or my job.

And the idea that kids who have attempted suicide shouldn't come into school - that's the last thing some of them need, to be taken out of their routine and away from their friends, giving them plenty of time to do nothing but think. And we have to crack on and teach them, because what else can you do for them?

This thread has been really interesting. Thank you all for your replies. It has been very enlightening. It is clear that so many schools and teachers are struggling with few resources and support and it’s a wonder that there are any teachers left. There really is no solution-the whole thing is a complete mess. My Dc’s school has just become part of one of the MAT’s that has been discussed here, which explains a lot!

Incidentally I don’t think there was a ‘golden age’ for schools –mine also had its problems bullying/violence etc but discipline was probably better. The kids (mostly) were a little scared of the teachers and now as someone up thread said – the teachers have far less power in this way-kids know their rights.

Everyone was streamed for every class –does this have any bearing? A PP said that mixed ability teaching is supposed to inspire those who are struggling to work harder but it actually has the opposite effect (My DC’s are ‘loosley’ streamed for some core subjects).

I completely agree with steppemum about inclusive education. The closure of many special schools has had an impact on mainstream schools and has adversely affected pupils who need extra support.

On a personal level, it would appear that the only hope my DC’s have right now is to move to a non-academy school with a low staff turnover (is it possible to find that information?) and hope that it doesn’t become an academy before they leave!

I agree that children with additional needs are being appallingly let down. The idea of moving the majority of them into mainstream education was never an altruistically motivated one. It was money saving!

The support was never completely there for them and it's getting worse from what I see in real life and read on here and see in various other media.

I can't begin to imagine how frustrating and sad it makes their parents feel.

All children have something to offer the world if they are properly guided and educated but the support just isn't there.

All children have something to offer the world if they are properly guided and educated but the support just isn't there

-well said Graphista

– I’m so sorry to hear about your DD that is really appalling. I hope she is feeling better.
Your poor DD was fine as long as she was performing but as soon as it became a little difficult, everything went wrong. All she needed was the support to help her catch up then she would have been back on track-it’s very short sighted of the school. I guess the pressure for them to perform was just too great. Have things improved or is she still struggling?

I completely agree with you about the discipline too – it really is shocking that some kids are allowed to treat teachers so badly.

My MIL said that there were approx 40 children in her (poor area, state, late 1940s-1950’s) school. After helping out at her DGC primary recently, she couldn’t believe how different it was. The main thing was discipline. In her school, the teacher was completely in control of the class at all times. The kids were terrified of being punished and their parents would have been even worse when they were notified. Now I am not suggesting returning to those extremes and corporal punishment but our schools are (mainly) the total opposite, with the majority of students having no respect for the teachers at all.

The majority have no respect? Are you sure?

I supply teach so have seen it all. I am today off to what should be a Terri le school when you consider location. It isn’t. There are lots of reasons for that but comes down to management.

I have recently refused to go any more to a school with a very similar catchment but which is very poorly managed. But even there it is a minority of kids who are a problem.

What do you expect the government to do? Completely screw up the economy to fund education?

Wow Resting, and yet there seems to money in abundance to fund a bung to the DUP, Cameron's vanity project Brexit and BoJo's Garden Bridge, etc, etc, etc....

Priorities innit.

Millions wasted on opening UTCs which close down again almost immediately is money spent on education that could have been better spent on other areas of education. Millions on teacher recruitment campaigns and nothing on teacher retention is another.

On a personal level, it would appear that the only hope my DC’s have right now is to move to a non-academy school with a low staff turnover (is it possible to find that information?) and hope that it doesn’t become an academy before they leave
Being an academy doesn't make a school how you described.
There were plenty of poor schools under ghe LA model too. (Just now instead if having one dirctor of education at the LA there are lots of dirctors claiming bigger salaries than the original LA director. Anyway I digress...)

I should say, i have an issue with thr academies system. I thinj there's soemthing wrong in carving up state education and turning schools into assets ti be traded etc.

But, a school being an academy doesn't make it worse. I've worked in a number of academies and been through the conversion process. Nothing really changes on the ground by virtue of changing status. We are an academy with low staff turnover and happy staff.
The big changes happem thr school buys into a large MAT (think ARK/Harris/Outwood) who have a very set way of having things in each school E.g. Outwood have their model, their SLT titles lile 'Asssistant head for deep experience' or some crap, their uniform and so on. That's where you get the big shifts, younger staff, younger leaders etc.

I guess I just wanted to say that it's worth having a look at what thr academies are (stand alone converter/small MAT with local schools / large regional MAT /massive corportate MAT) as that will make a difference.

I think mostly pupils do have respect for their teachers OP, but become disheartened. My dd went to grammar school and there were still the usual problems. She went from bright, love of school, eager to learn, good grades, etc, to not really being bothered, falling grades and just scraping through. We had many talks and she had become disheartened, it was such a shame and very concerning. She did finally pull her socks up and went to uni, but it was all very depressing. I don't know what the answer is but it doesn't help when teachers brand us as "those" parents when we are simply just very concerned about our children's education and welfare.

I hear you but my experience with secondary is hard working, caring teachers who have stayed the distance despite savage cuts and a head who has had to make sacrifices such as closing the school office early, cutting admin and charging for things like music GCSE but has managed to prioritise children and staff.

It definitely takes fantastic managment and the job is a lot harder than it used to be because of this fuckbunkle of a government full of overpriviliged out of touch tossers, you are 100% right about that.

However, there are some great schools because some heads are amazing and I’d have no hesitation changing schools if I had your experience. Good schools can still be found.

RestingGrinchFace Wed 13-Dec-17 12:05:28
"It's inevitable."

So how come it is not inevitable in all other countries?

"People who send their children to state school are, for the most part, unwilling to pay for it, "

Oh is that what it is? People working in badly paid jobs, on zero hour contracts are unwilling to pay school fees. And there I was thinking they were unable. Live and learn.

"as is the taxpayer, not that I can blame them, taxes are high as it is."

Other countries manage and have done for a long time. This country seems particularly loath to upset its wealthier taxpayers. But there is no sign that its economy is any better off for it.

"The money has to come from somewhere but it isn't. A good education costs a lot of money. What do you expect the government to do? Completely screw up the economy to fund education?""

A forward thinking government would reflect that a well educated workforce makes the economy more competitive. They would invest in that, just as a sensible business invests in new technology.

The UK has been slower to recover from the economic crisis than many of its competitors. Austerity has not proved to be a winning solution.

I recognise a lot of what you say

but I also see really dedicated teachers who are doing amazing things with the children in my son's class, despite the 'system' being set against them.

I'm concerned about the data obsession in schools - they spend so much time assessing so they can track progress that it really seems to take out of teaching time.

I don't think generalising about the UK as a whole is particularly helpful. As others have pointed out the system in Scotland and Northern Ireland is totally different - no idea about NI but certainly in Scotland there are no grammars and no academies in the sense of schoolsoutside local authority control. This causes no end of confusion with English relatives as my children go to a school called X Academy which isn't an academy in the sense they think it is.

Anyway. I don't see much of what the OP states is happening in my kids' schools. There are a few disruptive children but they are very much in the minority and the children are mostly motivated and enthusiastic. Discipline isn't a problem and children who are disruptive are dealt with promptly. There are no arsonists and kids bringing knives to school.

Don't generalise OP, especially when you have a poorly disguised political agenda to push.

I don't blame the parents or the staff for the lack of respect that I and others I know have experienced.

Yes perchi the kids know what's going on, they become disheartened and act up-they need people to care and tell them to behave.
The teachers on the whole at OUR school (IHMO) have given up. They are overworked and fed up and have limited means to discipline the kids and just don't seem to cope.

There are some teachers, according to my Dc's, who are able to control a class and do have a little bit of respect but they get this by being strict and shouting a lot throughout the lesson (and probably using their initiative and forgetting political correctness too).
This takes up time and comes at the expense of actual teaching.

Interesting points about academies thank you MaisyPops and yes management rather than area is probably key also ohreallyohreallyoh .

I haven't really experienced much of what you say at my dcs school. Staff seem very committed and relatively low turnover, however I don't think for a moment they're not over-worked and stressed.

My dd seems to be streamed for a lot of subjects since Y7. They many incentives for good attitude and behaviour (only good behaviour and hard work are allowed privileges). Since Y7 2 boys in her tutor alone have been expelled for bad behaviour (not sure if they use the word expelled anymore but they were asked to leave and they never returned).

I'm quite happy so far. I went to school in Wales in 80's. It was a normal comp. People went to Oxbridge, some went to prison. I saw it all. I did well.

LunasSpectreSpecs if you read ALL of my posts you will see that I have already apologised for venting and was trying to establish if this was a generalised situation throughout the whole of the uk school systems or just mine and my friends' Dc's schools.

Just because your school has well behaved children and no other problems doesn't mean to say that most schools are the same and I am just stirring trouble!

What political agenda am I thinly disguising? Who is responsible for the education system-is it not the MP's?!

I certainly have the right to express my opinion about the quality of education at the school my children are attending -I am not hiding anything!

It is very interesting to hear about the schools outside of England though I really didn't know the system was so different in Scotland, for example.

If you and a couple of others I notice, were implying that I believe one political party is better than another you are mistaken as I said in my OP:-

"Why is it that the government is so out of touch with reality? Is it because most of our ministers sit in their ivory towers just assuming to know what to do with the masses? Most of them AFAIK attended private schools so have absolutely no idea what is going on."

That's ALL of them not one particular party!!

I suppose you could argue that I believe that the people responsible for state education should have actually experienced it and I don't think I am hiding that opinion!

Blimey where on earth do you live. I have friends and relatives in many parts of the uk. With kids a mix of ages. Generally all kids are doing well in school with invested teachers. My DS is having speach therapy and his year 1 teacher quite happily integrates this with his reading sessions. Any incidents at school are dealt with swiftly. Discipline and pride in the school is good. I went to a really great primary school but really rough secondary school. I still did well. I think a lot depends on the other factors, support from home, mixing with different people outside of school, educational activities outside school. There were many kids who would now definitely be seen as having SEN. Back then they were just the naughty kids, all through GCSEs we had lots of supply teachers, there was a rape at school, lots of knives. It’s not a new situation -this was mid 80s. I did well academically with support from home. If it really is that bad I’d look to move, seek private tutoring, assist with homework and look on the internet for help

Just because your school has well behaved children and no other problems doesn't mean to say that most schools are the same and I am just stirring trouble!

The converse is also true - jut because your experience has been crap doesn't mean that most schools are the same. Just saying...

The elephant in the room is that not all kids are academic.

In times past a child could leave school at 15 (let's not go to earlier times - that wasn't so good!) and walk into a job. Now so many kids are corralled at school until 16/17 and funnelled through the exam system when it is not suitable for them. It is just massaging unemployment figures. Same with further education and even university in a lot of cases. Unnecessary.

It should be an expectation that every child should be able to read, write and do basic arithmetic. I find it scandalous that any child should leave the system without these skills (barring SN).

The school the OP mentions is a bit scare-mongery. My dcs go/have been to an ordinary comprehensive and it is fine. Frankly the teaching in a lot of cases is much better than I received in a (top) grammar school in the 1980s. In those days there were some seriously lazy teachers, I can tell you. No targets, no comeback if a whole class was mis-taught - or not taught at all -, a lot of marking time (but with no marking!) till retirement.