AIBU to ask WTF is going on with the UK state education system?

[pootleperkinandposy22]

OK it’s a long one...Have things really changed this much since I went to school in the eighties? Secondary school has been a baptism of fire for my kids.
I am so sick of all of this. People tell me that our school is bad and we should move our kids but I don’t see any better schools. OFSTED graded this school GOOD. What does that say about OFSTED? Anyone who thinks theirs is better-do you REALLY know what it is like? What about the teachers- what do you think?

I do not think that the education system is fit for purpose. Our kids are forced to go there and now that most of them are academies, there is no come back for their failings. Teachers train for the incentives and leave as fast as they can, getting jobs in the private sector and lifelong learning sector where they know they will have an easier time.
There is a constant lack of teachers, too many overpaid temporary staff who are not appropriately qualified and many teachers off sick (probably with stress!).
They are hot house exam factories who fudge the figures by applying pressure to get children to drop subjects they think they might fail and pressuring the more able to take more and more exams.

This is designed to make parents withdraw any children who do not fit the requirements for great exam results and pay for private schools or Home educate. How many people can do those things?

It is going the same way as the NHS...

The government is incredibly short sighted. They are storing up huge problems for the future by failing so many children who will still go on the unemployment register (albeit a couple of years later) or commit crime/suicide.

Why is it that the government is so out of touch with reality? Is it because most of our ministers sit in their ivory towers just assuming to know what to do with the masses? Most of them AFAIK attended private schools so have absolutely no idea what is going on.

Why should these incompetents be allowed to run the country just because they went to the top schools?

Senior leadership team are unreachable, overpaid sales people; only present at recruitment events and performances and any problems are deflected on to the over worked heads of year.

Behaviour and discipline are appalling. ‘Problem’ kids (you know- the arsonists/one who bring knives in to school/ones who continually beat up the younger ones) are brushed aside and ignored or given ‘special’ responsibilities to help build their self –esteem. The hard working bread and butter kids who just try to get on with it are ignored and not given any privileges or rewards. This creates resentment amongst the kids and demotivates the ones who would have the ability to achieve.

One of my DC’s is in the so-called top set. Not through giftedness but just because they want to work and most of the others do not. That appears to be the only requirement. DH thinks this will protect them from the disruptive kids but some difficult kids (who cannot cope with the work!) have been put in this set now too, to encourage them to try. This doesn’t work. It just stops ALL of them from learning!

Btw even if my DC could get in to a Grammar school, firstly we are uncomfortable with the pressure there and secondly, there aren’t any Grammar schools in this area. Why is that also a postcode lottery?

There are looked after kids who are completely messed up and understandably bring their problems to school. Self-harming is a daily occurrence, they are crying out for help, emotional blackmailing their friends and trying to kill themselves on a regular basis.
The teachers really don’t care about this. All they say is that they know about it and tell the concerned kids to go away and get on with their work!

The teachers are over stretched to the point of desensitisation for the children, they seem to see so many problems that they just do not care anymore.

These children are also physically and emotionally abusive to the other children. They call out continually in class, swearing at the teachers and goading the kids and generally being disruptive.
They are not punished quote :-
“...because they are in care and have a hard enough life anyway”

This is the only way these children are helped? By cutting them some slack instead of helping them with their problems? What about the other children?

I spoke to a social worker friend of mine and she said that the child who tried to kill themselves would probably be seeing a psychiatrist once a week anyway and there is only so much they can do and that they don’t know how to put these broken children back together again.

Why do children who are distressed as much as this, have to go to school and be forced to learn? How could you possibly concentrate on school work when you are so unhappy you are trying to take your own life?

Can any teachers comment-is this highly unusual to see children doing this or is it seen in most schools? I’m trying to see if it is just a really poor school who cannot deal with these problems effectively.

As for the kids with SEN. We have seen friends whose DC’s support has been withdrawn with the excuse that these kids have made so much progress that they do not need the help anymore. This is simply not true. They struggle, fail and are miserable and act out causing further disruption to the school.

The excuse every time is there is not enough money. Why not? Stop paying temporary staff over inflated wages. Perhaps stop subsidising the bars in parliament and use that money. How about stop giving MPs pay rises and pay them the same as public sector workers. That should help!

Arrgh! Ok rant over. I am just disappointed. Is it possible to have a decent state education and enjoy it too? Is our school just really really bad and we are very unlucky or is this just what we all have to put up with?

If you got this far then thank you for reading!

NewBallsPlease00 the 'pinch' is because local authorities cannot open new schools. In the SE where thousands upon thousands of new homes are being built you need the school places. If no academy, free school etc appears, what do you do?

I partly agree.

But my kids have all been through our local primary, and on the whole they have had amazing teachers who really cared and did a great job.
Some of the issues were there, 2 very disruptive boys in ds class, both with crap family history, eventually one moved and one went to a Pupil referral unit, where he was actually much happier (I used to meet him around sometimes)

Some ridiculous teachign to exams or ofsted.

But most of the teachers were still genuinely all about the kids and there was lots goign on to make school fun. This is an area with above average FSM, so no leafy suburbs. It is considered to be an outstanding school, and I think it is.

My 2 oldest are now at grammar, out of area, I tutored them for the test myself as our local secondaries are not great.
Both are at lovely schools, great ethos, really caring about kids. There isn't the huge pressue I sometimes read about with grammars, bit the expectations in terms of behaviour and academics is high, so the kids do achieve. Lots of emphasis on character development too.

One thing that really struck me, is that they don't have a high turnover of teachers compared with other secondaries, and that stability means a lot in a school. It also means they aren't having to pay highly for cover teachers.

I agree with you. DD is in year 8 at an Ofsted "good" school that is locally very well thought of. Many parents I speak to think the school is very good and their kids are doing well and happy. Well there is certainly 2 sides and it has surprised me how ignorant some parents are of how their children are doing emotionally and what goes on at some schools. Anyway the state of many schools finances are appalling due to multi academy trusts and the way they are run. There are many good teachers but there also seems to be a lot of good teachers leaving the state system, my daughter is currently being taught art by an RE teacher. Self harm seems to be fairly rife as is bullying. I'm praying the SEN department is better as my ASD DS starts there next Sept. We can't afford private, grammars are too far away and from what I can tell most of the other state schools are the same. I just hope my DC do well anyway - luckily we can help them at home (emotionally and academically) but not everyone has that.

People think private schools do better due to the parents and kids being smarter.

I don't think the natural ability of the children is much to do with it. Not all schools are selective and some of the best now try to meet their internally set targets for AEN children. Good schools are able to ensure that the children meet their potential; it's as simple as that.

The schools are better resourced, teachers and other staff tend to be better and students and their families often have a better attitude towards education and the school. If you stop being "geeky" or "a keeno" as pejorative and have students support each other rather than a fear of failure, attainment soars. A recent study found that state schools in poorer areas have a very high percentage of students with fixed mindsets with the vast majority of growth mindsets in better Independent schools. This was across the ages.

Independent schools are likely to have staff who specialise in an area and receive a stipend for coordinating it.

Parents demand more at independent schools and have more leverage to ensure they get it in most cases. Independent schools are a consumer-driven business. There's also the fact that when spending tens of thousands some people want to justify it to themselves.

The fact that we pick and choose what we teach and what we don't and by and large what paperwork we keep also helps.

Class sizes are by no means irrelevant but are quite a long way down the list of benefits when you have all of these other positive factors.

Christ, I couldn't have put that any better myself. Totally agree with everything you've said op. My godchildren are suffering at a state school atm. One has been moved to another school, and a friends ds is currently self harming due to the stress of tests/exams/mocks etc. Incidentally, both children were at the same school until recently. The whole system is a shambles

There are huge problems in schools but you lost me at 'teachers don't care'. That's beyond offensive.

...And yet the majority of kids are still managing to achieve decent GCSE results, record numbers go to university etc.. So the majority do not share your experiences.

And yes you sound like a journo. Poor show. OP.

Has it really been any better?

I think my parents had it easier with primary school kids in the 80s and early 90's. I got HW from yr5 - write book reports, occasional finish maths page and then in year 6 writing essays. Then subject HW at secondary we could do buy ourselves.

One of my children started getting home work in Nursery - others from reception a large proportion busy parental work - stuff kids couldn’t do by themselves which eats into family time especially with more than one child.

There's been less of that at their Welsh primary on the downside model building stuff goes on into secondary with less actual traditional style homework.

It’s more homework with less intrinsic value in it IMO.

The more I find out about the English school system the happier I am that we are not part of it. I withdrew my eldest 5 years ago as 75 4 year old children in one room really did not suit her.

We have home educated ever since and love it, everything is more real - we learn Spanish in Spain for example. Both the children and us have made so many wonderful new friends. The children have access to so many wonderful opportunities that they wouldn't have at school. We don't have to go to places when they are jam packed and at their most expensive - we don't have to queue. We can relax when we need to, we can get excited about the things that interest us.

Although our school experience was really unpleasant and it took quite a long time to recover from it, we would never have known how lovely it is to live like this so it was worth going through it.

Thanks so much for the replies -really interesting and I am trying to read through them all but haven't finished yet, it is sad to see that so many others have had bad experiences but encouraging that some have found the opposite.

I just wanted to say that I was annoyed and venting when I posted earlier and perhaps should have taken more care with the way I wrote. However, we have had a bad experience and there is no reason why I shouldn't discuss that. I am disappointed and disillusioned and do not know what to do.

I should not have said that teachers don't care. What I meant was they don't SEEM to care. Perhaps they are doing things in the background to help these children who are struggling but my DCs and their friends are upset as they don't see any compassion when they report these incidents. It is incredibly distressing.

Also I do think children are forced to go to school as it is a legal requirement to educate your children and I cannot afford to home educate or send them to a private school. What's the alternative then?move them? its that simple?!
It must be clear that I am trying to ascertain whether it is worth moving my DC? out of the frying pan and into the fire?!

I also don't mean to suggest that all looked after children are trouble. I did put that badly- I'm sure they are not. I don't think that they are supported enough and excluding them just moves the problem on to another school.

Most of the poor behaviour I described comes from children who are not looked after.

We are in the midlands -an ex-mining town btw.

I will continue reading and respond later when I have more time.

Thanks

Anyone who thinks that self harm, stress and pressure only comes in the state system is living in la la land. Mental health problems are rife in both sectors, especially in the most academic private schools where the pressure to achieve only the best in every part of life is huge. My friend who is a school nurse at a very selective private girls school is absolutely shocked by the levels of mental health problems there and it was the same when I was at school.

One of the huge elephants in the room in terms of education is inclusive education, the fact that a large percentage of children with SEN are now educated in mainstream schools.

I started teaching in 1991, and at that time LEA were just beginning to close special schools and send all kids into mainstream. Our head at the time fought tooth and nail to get the correct amount of support for a boy with Downs Syndrome who came to our school. In fact his bolshy insistance that this was a cost cutting exercise and not in the best interest of all the children involved eventually cost him his job.

So, in 1991, in our whole school, we had ONE children with SEN, and he had (thanks to our head) a full time 1:1 TA.

Obviously there have always been kids with various levels of learning difficulty in any class, some undiagnosed. But the children who in the 'old days' qualified for special schools in some way are now all in main stream school. In fact, children who have severe needs are now fighting for the very few places left in special schools.

Let me be clear, I am not against this in principle, but it is not properly funded or resourced, and while for some kids it is better to be part of mainstream, (and good for us as a society to be more inclusive) for others it is simply not the best place for them.
But now every single class has several children with quite noticeable additional needs. Those needs can be incredibly complex and wide ranging.
Very few teachers are qualified to teach those needs, and very little is done to train them to do it. TAs, while a great help, have no more specific training either. (usually). So we have a situation like in our school:

Child who has autism, fairly severe, needs 1:1 support, needs support at play and lunch, is prone to massive distressed melt downs when something really small chnages. They are in a classroom which is birght, colourful and visually stimulating, in other words sensory overload. They have 30 class mates, because, even though they are KS1, because they have SEN and TA support, the LEA can force the school to break the 30 limit on class size. In a room barely able to fit 30, let alone the extra adults. No room for a quiet area or corner or even a desk on their own for occasional time out. The noise is high when doing anything practical, again sensory overload. Neither TA nor teacher have any specialist training in ASD and they are finding strategies by doing their own research out of school. Playtime is a nightmare, much of what the whole class does has to orientate around this kid.

I just cannot see how that is better for that child, or for the rest of the class.
Current provision for SEN is woefully inadequate and the government's insistance that they be included int he SATS statistics, without any accommodation for their needs, means that school don't want them there either.

whoops, bit of a rant there

My DS is having a great time at his school. He is year 3 and every teacher he has had since pre school have been lovely.

They’ve been really helpful when I was having trouble with him at home.

The school has a great atmosphere with parents getting involved with activities. This is a school in a deprived area and from my point of view is doing a great job.

DC had a bad time in primary but secondary has been ok or even great. Ordinary govt schools.

Hugely better behaviour & discipline in their schools than I had.
Lot fewer drugs.
Violence about the same.
No weapons any generation.
Mental health overall better than my cohort had. My mother's lot had teenage pregnancy, We had eating disorders & drug abuse, the modern lot have self-harm. Nothing changes.
DC have liked their HTs & felt they had some personal relationship with them.

I'm so glad my dc are out the other side now. I bumped into an old friend recently who I hadn't seen for years. She's taken her youngest two girls out of secondary school and is now home-educating them as she was sick to the back teeth of the school ignoring quite vile bullying and the teaching staff being totally unsupportive of one of hers who has emotional difficulties & was struggling. It took her 45 minutes to list all the issues she had with our local secondary school (which had a change of head two years ago and the problems seem to stem from there) and I've never heard her swear so much before.

I'm a secondary school teacher now home educating my own children. I'm so glad not to be a teacher any more and now make a great wage as a tutor. My kids are doing fine (I compare them to kids at the local top private school) however truthfully I would have liked them to go to school. My eldest has mild autism (dyspraxia) and epilepsy. He is also very bright. His one year in reception taught me that his school couldn't support him where he needed it or push him ahead where he was gifted.
Home ed is full of kids who are either too gifted or too sensitive or too mild in their additional needs to get the support they need from the increasingly brutal world of school.
And don't even talk to me about academies. Teacher friends who work in them have told me about so many horror stories, it turns my stomach. Basically they are vehicles for ego inflation and lining people's pockets and to hell with the kids. The whole thing is a mess.

We are lucky to be up north. My daughters primary school is lovely. Her teachers are kind, caring and dedicated. She loves school and I think they do a great job. I suspect there is heavy regional variation.

I agree with you OP. I've moved my Year 9 DD out of an "outstanding" school where bullies roamed shamelessly, work was neither set nor marked and sex, smoking and eyebrows were the foundation of popularity. She was switching off more and more to the point of depression. A term later she is blossoming, articulate and forecast for a great future in her chosen field. A recent parent evening almost brought me to tears with the level of care and understanding of her individuality from the majority of her teachers. Yes its a single sex school and yes there are school fees and I know how lucky we are. I think I would have gone for the Home Ed route and managed on benefits if we hadn't had this opportunity.

As a teacher I agree with you OP. The successive governments are entirely to blame. There is so much they could do to improve matters, but they simply do the wring things and make it worse.

On the other hand, dd is in year 8 at our local secondary (of which dh is deputy head) and is thriving. It's not in a leafy Home Counties area but in semi rural NW England. Yes, there's quite a lot of bad behaviour and some very troubled kids, high staff turnover and too many lessons covered by cover supervisors. But the teachers are almost all really good and dd is very happy there and making good progress.

Being a teacher, I normally loathe Ofsted and take their ratings with a pinch of salt , but have actually heard very positive remarks from the last 2 local schools who went through an inspection. They felt the inspectors were very reasonable and credited the schools for the good things they were doing.

This is a very timely thread for me. I've got home to an e-mail from a head of department in DD2's school, saying year 10 behaviour is appalling, work has not been done so they ALL have detention tomorrow. But I know that few could understand the work they were given and when they asked for help they were told to just get on with it, there was a supply teacher and he refused to teach anything just said "read the book" - the one science teacher they liked has gone on early maternity leave due to stress. Behaviour IS appalling and many of the nice quiet kids are frightened, but the school never address this, they just gloss over it and publish newsletters with articles in about how great behaviour is. But then they have a police officer seconded to the school.

If I point all this out, and I know I can make a coherent case and explain everything in detail, I reckon he'll just ignore me as I know the staff are not supported by the Principal. And my DD is failing in science. So, where do we go?

Teachers are not ‘better’ in independent schools secretBadSanta - they have a far easier ride in terms of resources, class sizes and general respect but they are not better at teaching. I really really resent that comment, it is just not true.

Ds1 is apparently getting really good education at his comprehensive school (the apparently because he's only been there a term). We're really happy with it.

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