Ask about vegetarianisim and veganisim

[ginorwine]

Ok so I hate the way a great deal of meat gets on our plates - gross .
Was a veggie for 20 years but then decided to eat high welfare meat - this was on the basis that I felt being a veggie was sort of running away from issues / avoiding them as well as refusing to participate in meat producing industry were I could ( aware still had cheeses etc so not entirely )
I chose to eat high welfare meat as I wanted to use my consumer power to buy a good life for the animal and use consumer power to ' vote ' for this
As opposed to being invisible to the meat industry iyswim
In this way I felt it was contributing in a small way to saying the industry needs to be kinder and for animals to have less miserable exustsnce
However I just can't eat meat anymore
But I feel that I'm avoiding the issue almost
I wonder if anyone can explain to me in what ways veggie or vegan help animals by being not meat eaters - I'm
Hoping to address this - I can't be an active activist but would be willing to donate or support relevant campaigns .
Thanks - felt amibu to decide to be veggie / vegan when I actively want animals to have a better life and death

Josh, this is where Blacktea is coming from.
www.thoughtco.com/is-there-no-such-thing-as-vegan-127588

Killing animals in slaughterhouses cannot be justified morally

Of course it can. Perhaps you can't do it, but it can and very easily.

If you want to eat meat fine - but don't delude yourselves that it's helping the environment or ethical in any way

Actually responsible meat eating can be an ethical and environmental choice. Unless you have arrogantly decided that only your ethics count, and you ignore the environmental impact of western style veganism?

What's the point you're trying to make with the laptop and book argument? Am I eating or using an animal's corpse to do that?

Yes, you are using an animals corpse in your laptop, in the plastics, and quite likely in your books too, in the glue.
Hence why no-one should be claiming a cruelty free lifestyle.

I think we should all be eating less meat. And I think the meat we do eat should be higher welfare.

I don't really see why anyone has a problem with that; it's the truth.

I don't see where anyone has said they do have a problem with that?

"as I wanted to use my consumer power to buy a good life for the animal and use consumer power to ' vote ' for this
As opposed to being invisible to the meat industry iyswim "

But you're not "invisible" to the meat industry as a vegetarian!!

Think of consumer demand like the suction up a straw in a drink. If you suck gently, the rate of flow falls and less drink is consumed. If you suck as hard as you can, the rate of flow rises and more drink is consumed. By not consuming meat, you're reducing the suction through the straw, by reducing demand. That means that fewer animals die, ultimately.

I don't see where anyone has said they do have a problem with that?

All meat eaters go completely on the defensive if you ever say we should eat less meat.

Not all meat eaters, but a lot of them. It's like the culinary equivalent of pearl-clutching: bacon-clutching!!

Okay if you would like to put forward an ethical and moral argument for the slaughter of animals, which is beyond the scope of speciesism, go ahead.

Believing in animal rights is about boycotting products which exploit and harm animals as far as is possible practically. Your argument is a straw man argument indeed. I check labels as far as possible - perfume, plastic bags, condoms, nail varnish, etc.

Sure, being 100% vegan is near impossible in today's world. But why would i contribute to a highly immoral meat and dairy industry?

your argument implies if you can't commit to something 100% it's a waste of time. So, what's the point of studying if you don't get 100%? What's the point of giving to charity if homelessness, poverty and illnesses still exist?

This article by George Monbiot is a good explanation of the harm that meat-eating is doing to the planet (and by extension, to ourselves):

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/11/mass-starvation-humanity-flogging-land-death-earth-food

Westernized veganism and environmental issues?

Swings and roundabouts. Most articles you will find will tell you meat eating uses more land and is more environmentally damaging.

Soya is an issue. So is palm oil. But again, these are not integral to a vegan diet. I have cut them out and I'm doing just fine.

OP I'd say stop looking for perfection or a perfect solution. its not ALL in or ALL out. Eat less or no meat, or become a vegan if that is what you want.

re activism it takes a lot of work and energy. But you don't have to do it all. Its really good to just do something. Find something that works for you and fits with your life & other commitments and do it.

There is a danger in being swamped, feeling powerless. Its impossible to do EVERYTHING. Do what you can. something you can sustain and commit to is better than being stressed out trying to do everything and then getting swamped and stopping. And it's much better than doing nothing.

I'd also say it is exhausting (and largely pointless) arguing on the internet with strangers about these issues. You also don't need to do that. Pick your action to do in your actual life. Do it. Then do it again.

This article by George Monbiot is a good explanation of the harm that meat-eating is doing to the planet (and by extension, to ourselves)

Is that the George Monbiot that converted FROM veganism to an omnovire diet for the sake of the planet?
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestation

All meat eaters go completely on the defensive if you ever say we should eat less meat

No they don't.

Believing in animal rights is about boycotting products which exploit and harm animals as far as is possible practically. Your argument is a straw man argument indeed. I check labels as far as possible - perfume, plastic bags, condoms, nail varnish, etc

actually its about avoiding them as far as suits their lifestyle. Honey is evil but lets not talk about the animal fats in my laptop, phone etc cos I need those too much.

We're just looking for a little honesty here, that's all.

You might save an Animal or two by not eating meat. But please do some research into soy products... how/ where they are grown and processed.

LOL. You do realise that most crops - and especially soy - are grown to feed farm animals?

No they don't.

....have you read this thread? Yes they do.

joshhommeswife- Like I said in my previous post. We all decide where our moral line is drawn. You draw your line in a different place to me.
I'm happy with where my line is.

But you can't lecture other people for where there line is. The fact is we all use animal based products unless you live off grid and don't even paint your home etc.

I have read this thread, and no, they don't.

Nerudalsheaven- I do take issue with people telling me what I should or should not eat.
If I understand what I am eating then it is my choice to consume it or not.

"That's my belief" is not a suitable retort to my argument at all.

You've addressed no points I've made.

It's like a murderer saying well you think murder is wrong, but i draw my ethical line at the point where if the person is someone I don't like it's fine ! And also like saying well you can't avoid explotation of human life when buying clothes etc, so I may as well have a slave!!!

Deluded.

At least just have the balls to admit you like eating meat and that's all you care about

who are you even talking to?

I like eating meat. I care enough about where it is sourced to buy wild salmon, free range. I also signed for CCTV in slaughter houses which becomes law in the spring.

Murder is illegal. I don't know where that comes in to a debate about the use of animals by humans.
I use animals for food, clothing, my home, my electricals, my books, photographs. All sorts.
I understand what that means to the animals I understand how they are sourced.

Why am I a worse human being than some one who just chooses not to eat or wear animals but uses them in different ways?

"High welfare" animals still get slaughtered in the same slaughterhouses as the rest of the animals. If you truly care about animals, don't eat them. Your money is paying for slaughterhouses, and all slaughterhouses would be shut if no one ate meat, eggs or dairy. I became vegan because I wanted a world without slaughterhouses, and its the only way to work towards this

Slaughterhouses would shut if no-one ate eggs or dairy?