Aibu to "starve" my 5 year old daughter

[Arrowfanatic]

Ok, hear me out.

As a baby my 5 year old ate a wide variety of food, she's my 3rd child and was the best eater. However as she has gotten older she has started to refuse more and more food. It has gotten to the stage now where all she will eat is chocolate cereal, shreddies, ham sandwiches and cheese and tomato pizza. She will eat crisps, chocolate, sweets and Apple's but "meal" wise that is it.

What do I do? I have never pandered to her, she gets exactly the same served up to her as the rest of the family and she just won't touch it. She is the most stubborn child ever. My health visitor said to refuse to cook anything she likes, that she won't let herself starve. Well that wasn't true, she went 3 days only eating cereal at brekkie and a sandwich for lunch. Would cry she was hungry but refused anything else until eventually on day 4 I relented and cooked pizza.

My aibu I guess is, would I be unreasonable to again refuse to cook what she does like even though I know she won't try to eat anything else. She's always coming down poorly, and gets sore lips and things which I'm sure is from a diet lacking in goodnss. I tried to get her to take vitamins, but she refused them totally.

Help me, I just don't know what to do??

Making children eat things they would prefer not to eat is about meeting the adult's need for control, not the child's need for nutrition.

Rubbish.

Is that true for all things where your children do things they don't want to. I have given examples of going to bed, having technology etc. Perhaps your parenting style is to let them go to bed whenever they like and have as much technology as they like and to do as much homework as they like. It's not mine. 'Controlling' those things is called parenting.

Sirzy I was told not to bother seeing the dietician, after his OT, as we were already doing what they would advise. But a friend who is a paed and also has an ASD child. went to a conference in Brum recently, and has recommended someone she saw there who was amazing. We will be going in the new year as it's a private clinic, so I need to wait till Xmas costs have all been done. But I am hopeful, and it's been a while since I could say that.

People whose kids have no real food issues loftily insisting that it's down to parenting are ridiculous. Arrogance and idiocy in one distasteful package. Same as sleep, really - if it were that simple, they wouldn't need dedicated fucking clinics, would they.

Is that true for all things where your children do things they don't want to.

I think you're deliberately missing the point. Instead of telling people they are talking rubbish, why not reflect on what you're doing and the sort of relationship with food you're setting your child up for. Holding that level of control over your child isn't necessary or desirable.

It's perfectly appropriate to decide what food is available just as you decide how much screen time is available.

You don't need to interfere with what goes in their mouth, just as I'm sure you don't micromanage which apps your child uses during their screen time. I imagine you ensure they are choosing what to use from a selection you have ensured are suitable and safe and then you give them age appropriate freedom to make choices. As they grow up their choices will change just as their food choices will change as they mature.

Good parenting isn't just about control.

Goldmandra I don't think you understand my point.

Parents whose kids are good eaters advising other parents to do exactly as they did, and then their kids will eat as well, are not helping, IMO. Because a lot of this stuff is luck. I was always a brilliant eater because I enjoyed my food, and my childhood involved all the stuff I would never do with mine and is now seen as awful - I would literally have the same meal put in front of me at the next if I didn't clear the plate, for example. Really not great in any way. Yet I ate well. My ASD brother, on the other hand, had huge problems around food. That was biology, pure and simple.

I agree on self-regulation, incidentally. I did the research and that seems to be evidence based, as long as you don't offer really unhealthy options, which we are programmed to find appealing after millennia of fat and sugar being rare in diets, and prized for energy. I don't disagree with your position on the average child. I'm just saying that most parents seeking advice after trying everything will already know all this stuff. They will have tried everything, because a parent freaking out over a restricted diet is, by definition, engaged and conscientious. And having people brightly suggest something you tried in toddlerhood, which just does not work, is frustrating.

I don't think you understand my point.

Oh dear.

You know what. You're right. You keep on doing what you're doing. I'm sure it's the right thing for your particular child.

Will say I haven't RTFT as these posts tend to make me feel like the worlds worst mother and I know I'm not!
Just wanted to leave this with you....my ds was an absolute bloody nightmare eater. He was such a gorgeous easy child in everything apart from food, and I literally despaired! I tried everything I could think of and nothing. He went through stages where he would only eat honey sandwiches, or cheesy beans or dry cooked pasta with sausages....it was horrendous! His only saving grace was that he always ate a good breakfast, either Weetabix or shreddies with full fat milk, and fresh orange juice.
He's now 22, 6"2 tall, fit as a butchers dog and will eat anything going (apart from mushrooms!) in vast quantities....my advice to you is to chill, let your daughter eat what she wants, keep trying her with different foods, and above all, ignore all the uwanted 'helpful' advice you will invariably be given by people who haven't a clue how absolutely frustrating it is to have a fussy eater!! Good luck x

Reading through I can't see why you are arguing tbh. You are both advocating sensible approaches, and not dissimilar ones. Merry isn't saying she feeds her son stuff he hates - just that of food she knows he doesn't mind, he has to eat a daily veg portion. That's sensible IMO. So too is not making food a drama, and allowing them, from sensible options, to choose their own amounts. Both approaches make sense to me, and neither are rigidly controlling, nor overly indulgent. In fact there is a sliver of daylight between them, IMO.

DS has to eat a veg portion a day too. He complies now because he worked out we weren't kidding when associating severe constipation with a beige diet, and he's not stupid. It's sweetcorn or raw carrot, mostly, but it is still a vegetable. But, like Merry, we vary his diet within the narrow frame of food he's willing to eat.

Our main problem isn't just the restriction, but a raging and constant hunger. He wants to eat all the time. It's a real issue, and on a beige carb diet we need to be really careful to avoid weight problems and diabetes. They're eliminating an endochrine cause I hope and after that I'll seek advice on trying to manage a possible/probable sensory one.

Goldmandra what I am doing, as I've said in the post you claim to fully understand, is take him to a specialist clinic run by people who present at conferences for the NAS and AN. So yeah; pretty sure I am doing what is best for my particular child.

So yeah; pretty sure I am doing what is best for my particular child.

That's excellent

Do you always treat other people as children, when they try to explain you've misread their points? Or has this been a bad day or something? Because you're doing it really consistently. Merry didn't say what your responses imply, and nor did I, and yet you start sneering, "Oh dear..." when I said you'd misunderstood. Everyone misunderstands sometimes. That's life. Do you always find it this hard to actually try to talk with, instead of at, people?

perfectstorm

Find someone else to pick a fight with, there's a dear.

I do agree with Goldmandra. It is quite a significant difference between presenting a variety of foods (that you are happy with obviously) on the table and leaving the child to select what/how much they want from those foods to saying that the child ‘has’ to eat a vegetable that they ‘tolerate’.

This is enforcing that certain foods must be tolerated and ‘must’ be eaten because your mum/dad says so and not doing so would be misbehaving. Food is food. It is not good/bad, something that should be in any way associated with any kind of a reward/punishment.

(Obviously with a child with more complex conditions like perfectstorm describes where the child doesn’t feel full/has constant hunger, you need a specialist approach as you can’t just leave the child to eat endless potatoes/chicken, etc as they could eat and eat as don’t register fullness. Conditions like this are rare though).

Someone mentioned that most adults would choose chocolate over vegetables. This is probably because so many adults have a poor relationship with food. Once this is ingrained in you, it’s so hard to change your mindset. Some vegetables are really tasty and some chocolate is horrible but people don’t immediately think this.

Those saying it ‘doesn’t work’ are perhaps missing the aim of what you are doing. The aim isn’t to get your DC to eat/try more things, it’s to completely remove any anxiety around food so that when they do eat more variety (which nearly everyone does at some point), there is a healthy relationship established with food.
Usually what also happens is that the DC do eat/try more once the pressure is off, although it can take years.
It’s so, so hard to think differently and difficult not to say ‘just try a tiny bit’, ‘well done for trying’, etc. It’s also really difficult not to become frustrated when they are moaning/wining over something they ate no problem 2 days ago!

perfectstorm have you considered seeing an OT for a ‘sensory diet’? It’s common for DC with sensory processing issues not to register hunger and/or fullness correctly and often giving them the right sensory input can help with this. Obviously, if there are other medical issues, it may not make a massive difference but could help a bit. Sorry if you’re already doing this, just thought it may be worth mentioning.

I still disagree. I think it actually causes anxiety in children to have too many decisions/ decisions which are beyond them. Imagine learning what is healthy eating in school, but then having the power to decide whether you want to do this or not. That's enough to do any small child's head in. The OPs child is 5!

I think realistic, compassionate, clear expectations are best. Hence the expectation that my son eats some vegetables and some protein, which I know he doesn't dislike (eg. I wouldn't insist he eats mushrooms or fish), at every meal we have together. He knows that. It takes the burden/ unpredictability away from him.

I don't agree that praising a child always or automatically results in pressure. Children often thrive on praise and even ask for validation. That is totally normal 5 year old behaviour.

Imagine learning what is healthy eating in school, but then having the power to decide whether you want to do this or not.

They don't have the power to decide to eat an unhealthy diet unless you decide to provide it.

By and large, parents of fussy eaters are much better to step back and allowing the child to take control of what they choose to put in their mouth from a healthy selection. When the pressure is properly removed and adults mind their own business, most children will eventually relax around food and start expanding their diet again. Keeping up any sort of pressure, however it is limited or adapted, is likely to hinder that process.

As with all things, some children have additional needs and the usual rules don't apply but that isn't what this thread is about.

I don't agree that praising a child always or automatically results in pressure.

Praising children is a way of modifying their behaviour and is therefore pressure to do what the adult wants. It is a really positive and successful strategy for many things but we shouldn't be trying to influence what children choose to eat from a healthy selection. If you need to praise a child, praise them for listening to their own hunger/full cues. That is what sets them up for a healthy future relationship with food.

They don't have the power to decide to eat an unhealthy diet unless you decide to provide it.

So basically you're advocating the same as the health visitor. Which is make a healthy meal, say spagetti, bolognaise sauce, broccoli, raw carrot, grated cheese. The dd can choose whatever she likes from there. OPs dd would probably rather go hungry than eat any of that.

My ds would leave the veg because he just doesn't like it that much, but feel bad he hasn't had any of his 5 a day the teacher went on about yesterday. Spag bol isn't hugely unhealthy, but on it's own, not that great really.

And as you mention, that's without any 'additional needs' which are pretty hard to get any kind of a diagnosis for these days unless quite severe. My own ds has some sensory processing issues but that's about as far as we can pretty much self diagnose. I wouldn't be surprised if OPs dd is similar as I don't think most kids are this 'fussy' without something else going on. Her other two are ok as are my other two.

Shamelessly place marking to come back & read the comments because I'm in the exact same situation with 4 year old DD. I feel your pain OP x

I feel your pain and am wolfing down others responses here for my own good.

I would also add that the chocolate etc snacks that she wants seems to be a sugar fix to keep her going. My picky DC is the same. I know she needs food and is actually hungry and craving the energy that chocolate gives. (Only one small bar a day I would add) but she is seriously keen/addicted to that and I'm sure it must be the sugar.

.. I do also make mine have school dinners as the older sibling lost fussiness at school when hungry and copying peers around.

Having an expectation that your DC eats a set amount of certain foods is not dissimilar to having an expectation that they clear their plates. You could argue that a child isn’t able to decide what/how much to eat so their parents insist they clear their plates as the parent had decided what is on the plate is a reasonable amount of the right foods to eat.

If chimdren are able to choose from a range of healthy foods, they are far more likely to develop a positive relationship with food than if they are made to eat certain foods.

I do understand what you are saying about some decisions being beyond children but I don’t feel food is one of them. Children need to learn to listen to their bodies. Far too many adults are not able to do this and don’t even know how to recognise when they are full.

Praise doesn’t necessarily always result in pressure but it does create an unhealthy setup that food = reward (praise being the reward). Once this is ingrained, it’s so, so hard to break. So many adults reward themselves with food and have weight issues because of this.

Their are lots you can praise for involving the dinner; helping to set/clear the table, sitting nicely at the table, etc but it’s not good to praise/reward kids for eating.

Excuse the typos/terrible grammar in above post

So basically you're advocating the same as the health visitor. Which is make a healthy meal, say spagetti, bolognaise sauce, broccoli, raw carrot, grated cheese. The dd can choose whatever she likes from there. OPs dd would probably rather go hungry than eat any of that.

Now you're being ridiculous. Go back and read my posts.

Thank you littledinaco.

Beautifully put.

I don't get the difference. There's a healthy meal with various choices, she can choose what she wants to eat from those choices. If she doesn't want to eat any of it, I assume she goes hungry.

If you go back and read my posts, I'm sure you will understand. If you've done that and can't work it out, there's little point in explaining it further.