To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Most women I know realise that the main difference between a feminist and a gun is that the gun only has one trigger.

What’s the point if you’re just going to ignore my point and just throw insults and waffle on about unrelated statistics.

Back up your egregious claim about rapists being “ordinary men who cross the line”.

nearly one third of college men say they would commit rape

RAINN

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming 'rape culture' for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

"Most women I know realise that the main difference between a feminist and a gun is that the gun only has one trigger." That must be the funniest joke I've ever heard. Certainly the funniest joke on a thread about rape, which is clearly a very humorous thread!

I've already commented on the RAINN quote, where I disagree with it.

I think their point is though that blaming cultural factors takes away individual responsibility and may provide excuses and they don't want to see that.

It appears a third of respondents didn’t make that claim. Only 13.6% claimed that they had “intentions to rape a woman”. Not a third and not a majority of men.

Oh dear. You might want to read through that link again carefully.

Yes, blaming it on rape culture takes away the element of personal responsibility. It’s like blaming it on the boogeyman and this has a potentially harmful effect on women.

Back up your egregious claim about rapists being “ordinary men who cross the line”.

I don't have to prove anything everyone on here knows it's true. I don't see how I can prove it. Ask the police if you don't believe me. It's no skin off my nose either way.

God knows how many rape trials I've sat through now, I actually couldn't count. I'd say the majority of defendants didnt have prior convictions for anything other than other sex or dv offences, although some were petty criminals.

So, being naturally sceptical of anything I read from Huffington Post I googled that study. Seems it was done at one school and potentially even on one class. Not really the best way to infer facts about the behaviour of men as a whole.

So basically, 23 college bros from one college/class said they would rape a woman and this represents 1/3 of men? Gimme a break.

Rape culture has its impact nonetheless.

Cultural factors influence people to commit sex crimes just as much as knife crimes for example. Which is why police have strategies to deal with knife culture.

Why is it very important to you to insist that rape is only committed by a very small number of men who are already deviant?

when we have a minority group representing less than 10% of women repeatedly throwing around anecdotal evidence which not only casts men in an extremely bad light

Ah yes. Whether something casts men in a bad light is a key factor in deciding how true it is.

I agree with her, not you.

HTH

Every country is a rape culture. Patriarchy and misogyny is a scourge. Even in so called "advanced" countries. Look at the UK, where effectively a rape victim is put on trial just as much as perpetrator, her morality called into question . Or USA, the Harvey Weinstein thing..so much entitlement around handling women as and when you want to, #metoo discussed to the enth on social media often alongside derisory comments about women being "snowflakes", and how easily a serious issue such as this just fizzled out. It's no different in UK. If a man attacks you, you'd better be the "right type" of victim whatever that is..perhaps demure, not outspoken, long skirts only, don't dare emanate confidence and if you've had a drink, you were clearly asking for it anyway

It's not hard to see where and what rape culture is, if you are a person with awareness of the world around you. If not tho, you won't see it at all

#metoo was an attempt to make all that anecdotal stuff mean something. Because we all know.

We all have friends, family members, coworkers, clients and others who have been sexually assaulted or raped. Variously by strangers, dates, friends, family members and that wanker in the bar. And none of us/them report. In fact the only person I know who even spoke to a police officer was the male victim.

And when survivors talk, they don't talk about lone evil deviants. They talk about men with jobs and lives who you wouldn't look at twice. It's much easier for men to think of it as 'the other' but it's not. You probably know a rapist. And he'll never see the inside of a prison.

As a few posters have identified, you are actually safer in the UK from sexual violence than nearly anywhere else in the world. That doesn't mean we should.

But not when you compare the uk with other Western or developed cultures.

Yes, if you compare the UK to a third world country then it comes off pretty safe for women. But next to civilised countries, I think the UK has a long way to go before women can relax and feel they are protected.

I still don’t believe that it’s ‘ordinary men who slip up’. That’s something of an insult to the ordinary man who would never dream of doing such a thing.

Oh my sweet summer child.

It's an interesting (if slightly depressing) fact about human nature that those groups who have been historically oppressed or otherwise targeted, can often be the ones who then become the most likely to "lace up the jackboots" (figuratively) at the first opportunity. It's says something quite depressing about the human condition I think.

Read this thread for a good example of exactly that kind of thing. Seriously, read it.

Anyone who questions the basic idea in any way is told:

Your wrong

You can't question because you are a man

If a woman had questioned it's been implied that 'they don't know' so should shut up and let the women in the know talk

If you don't believe and agree with everything we say from the first instance onwards, or question us in any way, then you are part of the problem, "you are rape culture!!!!!!"

How dare these things be even discussed! If you want to talk about it in any way that we don't agree with, then you are a woman hater.

Everybody knows that all men are bastards and potential rapists. Awwww diddums if that upsets any men.

Any stats have been dismissed unless they are the "right" stats which back up the points being made, if they don't then they are bollocks and stats are irrelevant anyway because "we all know it's never reported". If they are the "right" stats then they are trumpeted as incontrovertible evidence.

It even seems that the posters are willing to dismiss the point of view of one of the most influential anti sexual violence charities in the world (an organisation that it could be argued knows more than all of them put together when it comes to rape and sexual violence) because it doesn't agree with them and strongly criticised the very concept of rape culture. (Something that nobody on this thread, even the OP has actually done).

And let's not forget the "shut the fuck up", "sit the fuck down", "fuck you" style responses that have also 100% exclusively come from one side of the argument only.

I ask you, in which other field or area of discussion would that sort of carry on ever be acceptable?

Presumably the more enthusiastic posters on here would like to actually convince other people of their position rather than just preach to the choir? They have a funny way of going about it.

It seems to me the people arguing against uk having a rape culture are thinking of particular kinds of rape. The kind that leaves a lot of evidence and is easier to prosecute.

The majority of assaults and rapes are pretty quiet, discrete incidents- men buying doubles for their dates, using gbh, having sex with their wives even though they know their wife doesn't want to, coercing a girl because 'she would if she loved him' etc. Those men don't look sleazy, don't look like offenders- they are just ordinary guys.

The culture is still that men need sex, and women should give it up.

* those groups who have been historically oppressed or otherwise targeted, can often be the ones who then become the most likely to "lace up the jackboots"*

And that is incomprehensible and wrong and illogical why?